NHS in a capitalist economy...

BobQ

globalds wrote: »

My only personal complaint with A & E is that I was cue jumped ..
That really shows a system that is disorganised.

I was feeling like complete hell
I had a prolapsed disc in my neck as a consequence of tearing off my bicep ..
I was waiting with my ticket number for triage and some !!!!! with an injured son stormed in and cue jumped.
I don't know the state of his son and maybe he deserved to be in front of me ..but when any system is being run by individuals who determine there own importance with no regard for the system in place and are let to get away with it ..I feel it is a pretty good sign it does not work for the majority.

Queue jumping? What arrogance you show. You do not know the condition of the person who you say jumped the queue but you call them a queue jumper? Had the person not been a priority they would have been told to take a ticket. I have sat in A&E and heard cretins moan about why someone was treated before them when they arrived first. A&E is not a post office queue where others are equal.

globalds

I had taken a ticket.
This guy walked straight into triage
I am aware his son may have had a burst appendix.. But surely triage should be more organised than to let the father decide who was in more need?
His son or the 3
People waiting to be prioritised?
Or should we all charge into the triage room

globalds

I will assume that I failed to explain precisely enough for you to have space to jump to a conclusion.. As I was not intending to either display or be accused of arrogance

grizzly1911

globalds wrote: »

I had taken a ticket.
This guy walked straight into triage
I am aware his son may have had a burst appendix.. But surely triage should be more organised than to let the father decide who was in more need?
His son or the 3
People waiting to be prioritised?
Or should we all charge into the triage room

AIUI children tend to get priority.

I can understand the frustration though. It is not always clear what is going on behind the scenes, critical ambulance cases, which again may take all capacity, at certain times.

BobQ

globalds wrote: »

I had taken a ticket.
This guy walked straight into triage
I am aware his son may have had a burst appendix.. But surely triage should be more organised than to let the father decide who was in more need?
His son or the 3
People waiting to be prioritised?
Or should we all charge into the triage room

You may be right that this person did jump the queue undeservedly. But I think you have to consider the possibilities.

If you go to A&E having been there before you may understand how the triage system works. If you turn up with a minor dog bite you possibly have time to read the notices or follow the instructions about taking a number. But he may have been so concerned about his son that he did not appreciate the need to follow the triage system. When you are distressed people do all sorts of things and may not behave rationally. He may just have seen a nurse and walked up to her. Equally he may have realised that the condition was serious enough that he had to go straight to triage nurse.

I once went into A&E having been dropped off by car with someone who had a gash to their head. As we got out of the car, the patient stumbled and told me their head was throbbing and they felt giddy. I can assure you that my first priority was to get the patient to the first medical professional that crossed my path, and she was too busy calling for help to tell me to take a number.

grizzly1911

globalds wrote: »

Then I have to throw it back at you ..
How do we pay for something that has no agreed cost and no negotiated funding ?

I was not trying to be punitive
I was trying to offer a pragmatic future for a dream that is slowly becoming less and less achievable.
All of those scenarios would be factored and become a calculable value ..That either government would be forced through taxation to cover or for some situations some kind of legal process to collect funds would be required.
My one real concern is with those in charge of organising this ...I can't think of any group I would trust with this ..Not politicians and not Big Business.

I am not sure how you can cost out healthcare and set a rigid budget. You can probably have charge out rates for a typical knee operation not so easy for a cardiac intervention.

Something like 90% of prescriptions are free which would suggest that a good proportion of the population wouldn't be able to afford insurance or insurance wouldn't want to afford them. Perhaps the current cost, that would need to be recovered, is broadly reflected in taxation already.

Arguably those with the ability to pay, or through their employer, already do if they are concerned or want enhanced options.

Many routine items such as dentistry and eye care are already chargeable.

At the moment private cover cherry picks and doesn't take on all the liabilities. If it were to take on wholescale responsibility I doubt the treatment conditions for the majority would alter markedly. I also doubt that the taxation burden would fall enough for the average Joe to notice. Would we get effective competition? It doesn't seem to have brought the great benefits in much else that has been opened up.

Those that could afford the platinum level would continue to see the benefits as they do today.

BobQ

globalds wrote: »

I will assume that I failed to explain precisely enough for you to have space to jump to a conclusion.. As I was not intending to either display or be accused of arrogance

Well when you say that someone jumped the queue but then say you do not know what was wrong with them, I was struggling to find another word to use. Maybe my limited vocabulary is the problem!

grizzly1911

lostinrates wrote: »

Well, I'll thank you for your charm . Sadly its not true....but ta.

The point is rather in an accident or an emergency, however well heeled or 'classy' one might be, there is not time to freshen hair/make up, get out of the clothes one had the accident in, or whatever. Today I was out and realised I was wearing pyjama trousers. I have a vague idea they might have passed for yoga pants. They are certainly the sort of thing I would grab to go to a and e in a rush. .

I just don't buy into the idea you can tell someone is well heeled or not in a and e or a treatment centre. Looking back I have expressed mild frustration we are always dressed in dog walking or gardening clothes ...dh often in his track suit trousers and some awful shoes he won't let me throw away. Looking at us in such situation I am positive no one would say ' well heeled'.

The fact you have separate dog walking & gardening clothes probably suggest you know what I am getting at.;)

My FIL used to dress like Compo from last of the summer wine when walking his dog, complete with string to tie his anorak shut. His manner, speech and articulation left you in no doubt that this was but a facade.

BobQ

globalds wrote: »

I can't see how the health service can survive

It is stretched at every end ..From staff who want top dollar to patients that want everything of a service that was never really defined ..

Staff who want top dollar? I cannot see why staff should not receive the going rate for the job (allowing for some relatively generous pensions). The expectations of the clients is I agree more difficult to deal with.

Is it emergency care , medical treatment , practical health care ,
preventative medicine ...All of this and more ..The list is endless , the cost
of treatments never goes down. Every government sticks it's oar in for purely
political motivation ..Did any one see the cost of out of date Tamiflu ?

I agree that government interference is a problem. Unfortunately, from a political perspective its difficult to avoid interference. To the left its a public sector institution to be cherished whatever the cost. To the right its socialism in action and ripe for privatisation.

It is not that I don't admire it ..But really society has to do something to
protect it ..we help it out , or stop abusing it .

I agree it needs to be protected but this is difficult when its at the centre of a political argument.

I think some kind of insurance interface makes real sense ..they will act as a
kind of auditor ..stop the hypochondriacs and time wasters and also set out
definite parameters of covered treatment and areas where extra insurance is
needed

The arguments about hypochondriacs and time wasters are difficult to prove and may obscure genuine concerns about a problem. I think this is best dealt with by GPs rather than punitive measures. I still recall my grandmother telling on the difficult choices she made pre-NHS about which of her children she could afford to take to the GP. One almost died of a condition she ignored because of the cost of just visiting the doctor.

Does it really matter whether its state funded or insurance funded. Insurance needs to make a profit and will be limited in accordance with the policy purchased. No insurance provides unlimited cover and someone will have to cover the conditions it excludes. Taxation funding will limit cover based on what can be afforded. The good quality care in the US costs 17% of GDP, ours costs about 9%. If we were to make the NHS insurance funded we would end up paying more on average.

A typical BUPA policy costs £1000 to £2600 depending on age and does not cover all conditions or A&E. The NHS provides comprehensive care for an average of about £2100 a head.

lostinrates

grizzly1911 wrote: »

The fact you have separate dog walking & gardening clothes probably suggest you know what I am getting at.;)

My FIL used to dress like Compo from last of the summer wine when walking his dog, complete with string to tie his anorak shut. His manner, speech and articulation left you in no doubt that this was but a facade.

That's a different point. How many people would hear your fil talk in a and e? I certainly try and keep m voice down as I am embarrassed by my string tied clothes and aware that in their emergency other people don't care to here me wax lyrical. As for manner and demeanour....ill, injured......i am sure I am not at my most ladylike.

I have separate dog walking and gardening clothes...be
Us they are pretty much all I wear some weeks!