We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Hello Forumites! In order to help keep the Forum a useful, safe and friendly place for our users, discussions around non-MoneySaving matters are not permitted per the Forum rules. While we understand that mentioning house prices may sometimes be relevant to a user's specific MoneySaving situation, we ask that you please avoid veering into broad, general debates about the market, the economy and politics, as these can unfortunately lead to abusive or hateful behaviour. Threads that are found to have derailed into wider discussions may be removed. Users who repeatedly disregard this may have their Forum account banned. Please also avoid posting personally identifiable information, including links to your own online property listing which may reveal your address. Thank you for your understanding.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
Official notice not received in time, but we're aware of it. What to do?
bishopersatz
Posts: 4 Newbie
Hi,
Bit of a strange situation here. We have a tenancy (in England) that started in 2009 as an AST and after one year became a monthly SPT. The tenancy period runs from 28th to 27th.
Yesterday (Friday 24th) we received an email from the letting agent saying that the landlord was selling and therefore we were being given notice from the 27th of this month, and that official notice would be arriving by post. Therefore our last day would be 27th July.
As 27th is a public holiday, and tomorrow is a Sunday, today is the last day that official notice could arrive by post. It has not arrived. I do not think they intend to hand deliver given the agent's words "in the post", so I expect their official notice will turn up on Tuesday 28th, late.
Now, normally we would not consider it a big deal whether we need to vacate by 27th July or 27th August, but owing to some factors I'd rather not get into at this stage, there is a slim possibility that our ability to remain in this property for a short time after 27th July would be extremely beneficial to us. I am unable at this stage to tell whether we will require that time or not, and will be unable to know for sure for a good few weeks yet.
So, assuming their notice letter does not arrive until after Monday 27th, I have a few questions that I would like to hear your opinions on:
1) Does their emailed advice of notice constitute official notice in law?
As their email states that "official notice will be received by post", and the tenancy agreement does not say that email is a valid way of delivering notice, I believe their email does not constitute notice. Even if it does, they risk us claiming (falsely) that we never saw the email.
In any case their email is informal, contains none of the legal terms like Section 21 etc., so I can't see how it can be official.
Furthermore the email was addressed solely to me, my partner was not copied in, and she is a joint tenant and is named on the agreement so technically she remains completely unaware.
2) If their notice has therefore been delivered late, are we required to advise them of this?
I was under the impression that if you are served an invalid notice then you do not actually have to tell them. You could if you wished wait until the date came and when they ask why you have not left you could say that you haven't received valid notice. They would then be left to work out why and issue a new, valid one. This would add at least 2 months, maybe as many as 3 given confusion and timing.
We do not wish to do this. It seems overly uncooperative in the circumstances. But it would be useful to know if it is a possibility, as it may be a useful negotiating point later.
3) Given that they probably posted the notice on Friday assuming it would arrive today, but it hasn't, is there anything we should do to prove that we did not receive it until Tuesday?
Should we chase the postman down the street and ask him to sign a bit of paper confirming that he put the item through the letter box that day? I am concerned that if we try to rely on the matter of the notice arriving late, they will say that we're lying and it did arrive on Saturday.
4) If all of the previous points seem to indicate that we can rely on being legally in the right regarding this notice being delivered late, we think we should do something like the following:
On Tuesday write an email to the letting agent saying something like:
)
We have a UK address in our tenancy agreement which we will send the above to, but it is the agents who are managing everything and so in the interests of making them aware of the situation as soon as possible we think an email copy is easiest for now. Doing it all solely by post is likely to drag things to a standstill and we wish to be reasonable with them while they are reasonable with us.
However the main (legal) point is that we believe we haven't yet been served notice, so that is why we will also post the above to the landlord's address for correspondence and have proof of postage for that. We will do similar for any communication which we think we'll need to rely on.
Does that sound reasonable? Would you handle it differently?
Thanks for reading!
Bit of a strange situation here. We have a tenancy (in England) that started in 2009 as an AST and after one year became a monthly SPT. The tenancy period runs from 28th to 27th.
Yesterday (Friday 24th) we received an email from the letting agent saying that the landlord was selling and therefore we were being given notice from the 27th of this month, and that official notice would be arriving by post. Therefore our last day would be 27th July.
As 27th is a public holiday, and tomorrow is a Sunday, today is the last day that official notice could arrive by post. It has not arrived. I do not think they intend to hand deliver given the agent's words "in the post", so I expect their official notice will turn up on Tuesday 28th, late.
Now, normally we would not consider it a big deal whether we need to vacate by 27th July or 27th August, but owing to some factors I'd rather not get into at this stage, there is a slim possibility that our ability to remain in this property for a short time after 27th July would be extremely beneficial to us. I am unable at this stage to tell whether we will require that time or not, and will be unable to know for sure for a good few weeks yet.
So, assuming their notice letter does not arrive until after Monday 27th, I have a few questions that I would like to hear your opinions on:
1) Does their emailed advice of notice constitute official notice in law?
As their email states that "official notice will be received by post", and the tenancy agreement does not say that email is a valid way of delivering notice, I believe their email does not constitute notice. Even if it does, they risk us claiming (falsely) that we never saw the email.
In any case their email is informal, contains none of the legal terms like Section 21 etc., so I can't see how it can be official.
Furthermore the email was addressed solely to me, my partner was not copied in, and she is a joint tenant and is named on the agreement so technically she remains completely unaware.
2) If their notice has therefore been delivered late, are we required to advise them of this?
I was under the impression that if you are served an invalid notice then you do not actually have to tell them. You could if you wished wait until the date came and when they ask why you have not left you could say that you haven't received valid notice. They would then be left to work out why and issue a new, valid one. This would add at least 2 months, maybe as many as 3 given confusion and timing.
We do not wish to do this. It seems overly uncooperative in the circumstances. But it would be useful to know if it is a possibility, as it may be a useful negotiating point later.
3) Given that they probably posted the notice on Friday assuming it would arrive today, but it hasn't, is there anything we should do to prove that we did not receive it until Tuesday?
Should we chase the postman down the street and ask him to sign a bit of paper confirming that he put the item through the letter box that day? I am concerned that if we try to rely on the matter of the notice arriving late, they will say that we're lying and it did arrive on Saturday.
4) If all of the previous points seem to indicate that we can rely on being legally in the right regarding this notice being delivered late, we think we should do something like the following:
On Tuesday write an email to the letting agent saying something like:
Thank you for your letter of [date on S21 when it arrives].
Unfortunately your Section 21 notice did not arrive until [date] and is therefore invalid. Please can you issue another official notice before 27th June giving us notice to leave on or before 27th August.
We appreciate that this is not what you intended. It is very likely that we will be in a position to vacate the property much sooner - perhaps even sooner than 27th July as you intended. This is because [happy to explain the reasons of our circumstances to agent here], and as a result there is a slight possibility that we may need to remain in the property for a short time beyond 27th July.
As soon as we have firm dates we will be happy to let you know and negotiate a leaving date which could well be on or before 27th July if our landlord desires this. We will also be more than happy to be flexible regarding access to the property in the meantime for any agents of the landlord or the buyer.
We have also posted a copy of this email to Mr Landlord at the address for correspondence in our tenancy agreement, [address], so we consider this written confirmation that we have not yet been served a valid Section 21 notice.
Reason for email rather than doing it all by post: we have never met or corresponded directly with our landlord. He lives abroad. Even the agents have at times said that they have been unable to contact him. (Though admittedly this was always at times when he needed to spend money! Unfortunately your Section 21 notice did not arrive until [date] and is therefore invalid. Please can you issue another official notice before 27th June giving us notice to leave on or before 27th August.
We appreciate that this is not what you intended. It is very likely that we will be in a position to vacate the property much sooner - perhaps even sooner than 27th July as you intended. This is because [happy to explain the reasons of our circumstances to agent here], and as a result there is a slight possibility that we may need to remain in the property for a short time beyond 27th July.
As soon as we have firm dates we will be happy to let you know and negotiate a leaving date which could well be on or before 27th July if our landlord desires this. We will also be more than happy to be flexible regarding access to the property in the meantime for any agents of the landlord or the buyer.
We have also posted a copy of this email to Mr Landlord at the address for correspondence in our tenancy agreement, [address], so we consider this written confirmation that we have not yet been served a valid Section 21 notice.
)We have a UK address in our tenancy agreement which we will send the above to, but it is the agents who are managing everything and so in the interests of making them aware of the situation as soon as possible we think an email copy is easiest for now. Doing it all solely by post is likely to drag things to a standstill and we wish to be reasonable with them while they are reasonable with us.
However the main (legal) point is that we believe we haven't yet been served notice, so that is why we will also post the above to the landlord's address for correspondence and have proof of postage for that. We will do similar for any communication which we think we'll need to rely on.
Does that sound reasonable? Would you handle it differently?
Thanks for reading!
0
Comments
-
Do nothing: No, NOTHING!!!!
Why give the agent/landlord early warning their s21 is invalid.. let them go as far as court proceedings (if you haven't left by then..) then challenge on grounds of invalidity & they have to start again - probably 3-4 months time...
email notice is invalid - unless perhaps you both (tenant & LL) agree to accept.
Note that a Section 21 notice does not end the tenancy nor oblige the tenant to leave on expiry: It merely permits the landlord to start legal proceedings on expiry.
My youngest son & 2 mates had an invalid notice: (for various reasons..) pointed it out to agent but said they'd agree to go IF immediate good reference in writing & 1 month of the rent: Think on't - you could negotiate to your advantage.
How very odd to find an agent not knowing what they are doing, aye, right....
btw just because landlord is selling (is he?? It's a convenient excuse used often when perhaps untrue..) - if he does sell you tenancy agreement continues exactly as before, save the new landlord needs to write & advise you (in the correct form) who he is etc... Oh, and he doesn't have to use the agent or indeed any agent.. Suspect the "old" landlord's s21, even if valid, may not be used by the "new" landlord..
Cheers!
Artful (Landlord for 10+ years...)0 -
Another question I forgot to ask:
5) When the landlord's buyer hears that the property may not be vacant until 27th August it is possible he could pull out. Is there a risk that landlord may decide to sue us for financial loss?
I am thinking there is no credible risk of this because both landlord and buyer should be aware of the pitfalls of selling/buying a tenanted property. Furthermore if we have the law on our side regarding valid notice then there is no case to answer anyway.
However as there is only a small risk that we will need to remain after 27th July, perhaps it is worth weighing that up against some possible risk of being sued for ruining a sale.0 -
bishopersatz wrote: »Another question I forgot to ask:
5) When the landlord's buyer hears that the property may not be vacant until 27th August it is possible he could pull out. Is there a risk that landlord may decide to sue us for financial loss?
.....
Perhaps, but I'd doubt very very very much he'd win. Sue because you the landlord made a stupid school-boy error on a very well understood & documented procedure?? Nah, you'd lose.
Anyway, s21 does not end tenancy nor oblige tenant to leave... Were I to sell a rented property I'd get tenants out first (maybe bribing them for speed), tidy it & re-paint etc & de-clutter & then sell for a higher price. Your landlord is either desperate, stupid or ignorant or perhaps all three...
Cheers!0 -
Okay, see your point. It feels "wrong" to do this to them though, even if they are letting agents!theartfullodger wrote: »Do nothing: No, NOTHING!!!!
Why give the agent/landlord early warning their s21 is invalid.. let them go as far as court proceedings (if you haven't left by then..) then challenge on grounds of invalidity & they have to start again - probably 3-4 months time...
In reality it is likely that we can move even before 27th July. I just want them to know that they have absolutely no legal or moral expectation that we will leave before 27th August and any offer they get better than that is a favour.
Certainly, if we ended up in a position to leave early we would try negotiating and I don't think anything I've proposed to say would prevent that.theartfullodger wrote: »My youngest son & 2 mates had an invalid notice: (for various reasons..) pointed it out to agent but said they'd agree to go IF immediate good reference in writing & 1 month of the rent: Think on't - you could negotiate to your advantage.
I think there may be a degree of financial distress involved because this property would look a million times better with minimal effort spent on redecoration, which could have been done even with us in it (we've already been very flexible regarding viewings).theartfullodger wrote: »Were I to sell a rented property I'd get tenants out first (maybe bribing them for speed), tidy it & re-paint etc & de-clutter & then sell for a higher price. Your landlord is either desperate, stupid or ignorant or perhaps all three...0 -
But the advice is to sit tight. Don't let your urges get the better of you.bishopersatz wrote: »I just want them to know that they have absolutely no legal or moral expectation that we will leave before 27th August and any offer they get better than that is a favour.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
Okay, so advice so far is to sit tight and not inform them of their mistake.
In that case does anyone have any advice on:
* Is there anything we should do on Tuesday to obtain proof that the notice letter was received that day? As it stands they can say we're lying and they will likely be able to prove they posted on Friday 24th.
* What response should we give if they ask us about receiving their notice letter?
Them: Did you receive our notice letter?
Us: Yes
Them: So you'll be going on 27th July then?
Us: [what?]
Thanks!0 -
Just note it in your diary when it arrives and keep the envelope safely.
Read this thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4617307 and note what poster Werdnal says.
Unless it is postmarked Wednesday gone or before, they have missed the boat.1st class Letter with free proof of posting is deemed served (ie delivered) 2 working days after posting.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
1) Does their emailed advice of notice constitute official notice in law?
No. The email is, clearly, a notice that the S21 WILL be served. You are served a S21 notice only when that S21 notice is served on you.
2) If their notice has therefore been delivered late, are we required to advise them of this?
No. You could wait until it gets in front of a court, should you so wish to do. The onus is on the LL (or agent) to get it right.
3) Given that they probably posted the notice on Friday assuming it would arrive today, but it hasn't, is there anything we should do to prove that we did not receive it until Tuesday?
Keep copies of the email and the franked envelope. Courts assume it takes 2 working days for 1st class post to arrive.
4) If all of the previous points seem to indicate that we can rely on being legally in the right regarding this notice being delivered late, we think we should do something like the following:
For now, do nothing. Once you know the outcome you want, you can then decide on the appropriate course of action. It may well be that your interest are best served by compliance with the notice as served. Keep your options open.0 -
theartfullodger wrote: »Do nothing: No, NOTHING!!!!
Why give the agent/landlord early warning their s21 is invalid.. let them go as far as court proceedings (if you haven't left by then..) then challenge on grounds of invalidity & they have to start again - probably 3-4 months time...
We cannot possibly judge the validity of the S21 from the info given. We may be able to advise, with some certainty, that it can't expire on the date intended. But that wouldn't necessarily make it invalid or mean that the LL would have to start from scratch. It may just delay proceedings by another month..0 -
LUCP: If the s21 is served (as it sounds like it will be..) giving less than 2 months notice it will be invalid: Or am I reading a different version of HA 1988 S21 to yours or was it something else you were referring to ??0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 351.3K Banking & Borrowing
- 253.2K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 453.7K Spending & Discounts
- 244.2K Work, Benefits & Business
- 599.3K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 177.1K Life & Family
- 257.7K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.2K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards