Electric heaters

Richie-from-the-Boro

bryanb wrote: »

Time to come into the real world Richie, this has been in operation for many years.
Also please don't twist what I post. ie generated electricity cannot be wasted.

- at 23.20 when you switched of Paxman, kettle off, Horlicks and then bed
- as did I assume 99% of the UK, and 99% of the Uk stopped most of its power draw
- 60 minutes after your Horlicks the demand in the UK dropped [real time UK] 6 gigga-watts
- please explain to me what happens to the electrical power generated by the power stations after midnight
- and what happens to the so called 'green' power, little windy-mills spinning all night like drunks on a carousel
- they don't just stop at 2320hrs, you can't just switch them off, where does all that leccy go ?
- and how do these gigawatts get into a lake in Wales ?, sent there in box's ?, down wires dipped in the lake ? - how ?
- or, if they have already spent a fortune generating the electricity how is it stored as p o t e n t i a l energy ?
- what is potential energy from waste coal / oil generation and how is it converted back to on-demand leccy ?
________________

I said stored as potential energy not heat energy.
Google Dinorwig pumped storage for an explanation, or see the post above.

- irrelevant in a debate such as this , airy fairy claptrap, and a whole other subject
- my #13 contribultion which you quoted and contradicted makes clear I was debating "allow a UK island wide security of 'storage'"
- ie, waste power generation that can not be switched off, usually wasted stored in individual homes in millions of storage radiators

Hydro was in this country in Cragside 150 years ago, get up to speed, the debate was on storing current wind / wave / coal / etc wasted generation rather than sending it to earth .. .. not pumping water uphill.

bryanb

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- at 23.20 when you switched of Paxman, kettle off, Horlicks and then bed
- as did I assume 99% of the UK, and 99% of the Uk stopped most of its power draw
- 60 minutes after your Horlicks the demand in the UK dropped [real time UK] 6 gigga-watts
- please explain to me what happens to the electrical power generated by the power stations after midnight
- and what happens to the so called 'green' power, little windy-mills spinning all night like drunks on a carousel
- they don't just stop at 2320hrs, you can't just switch them off, where does all that leccy go ?
- and how do these gigawatts get into a lake in Wales ?, sent there in box's ?, down wires dipped in the lake ? - how ?
- or, if they have already spent a fortune generating the electricity how is it stored as p o t e n t i a l energy ?
- what is potential energy from waste coal / oil generation and how is it converted back to on-demand leccy ?
________________



- irrelevant in a debate such as this , airy fairy claptrap, and a whole other subject
- my #13 contribultion which you quoted and contradicted makes clear I was debating "allow a UK island wide security of 'storage'"
- ie, waste power generation that can not be switched off, usually wasted stored in individual homes in millions of storage radiators

Hydro was in this country in Cragside 150 years ago, get up to speed, the debate was on storing current wind / wave / coal / etc wasted generation rather than sending it to earth .. .. not pumping water uphill.

I guess you didn't study physics at school.

Richie-from-the-Boro

bryanb wrote: »

I guess you didn't study physics at school.

An excellent and well thought through contribution to my question on (1) """ what is potential energy from waste coal / oil generation, and how is it converted back to on-demand leccy ?""" ~ and ~ """and (2) how do these gigawatts get into a lake in Wales ?, sent there in box's ?, down wires dipped in the lake ? - how ?"""

Educate me, and the rest of the group, I for one will give you my undivided attention. How do all these gigawatts of energy generated during the night but unused and unsold from the 15 nuclear, and many many other associated coal, windy-mills, wave, bio-mass etc generators - get into the lake in Wales?

Gloomendoom

They are converted to potential energy in the form of a mass of water that is higher up than it used to be.

By the way, not as much energy is actually generated at night. Unless there is a load on a generator it just freewheels.

bryanb

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

An excellent and well thought through contribution to my question on (1) """ what is potential energy from waste coal / oil generation, and how is it converted back to on-demand leccy ?""" ~ and ~ """and (2) how do these gigawatts get into a lake in Wales ?, sent there in box's ?, down wires dipped in the lake ? - how ?"""

Educate me, and the rest of the group, I for one will give you my undivided attention. How do all these gigawatts of energy generated during the night but unused and unsold from the 15 nuclear, and many many other associated coal, windy-mills, wave, bio-mass etc generators - get into the lake in Wales?

To answer your last paragraph, there is no unused electricity generated at night. The concept of unused A/C electricity is impossible, as I've said before.

Some generation at low demand times is used to pump water up to a lake higher than the generator. This water is the allowed to run down through a hydro electric generator when demand is high.

Sorry if you cannot agree with these points but 14 years in the power generation industry gives me confidence that I am correct

Richie-from-the-Boro

bryanb wrote: »

To answer your last paragraph, there is no unused electricity generated at night. The concept is impossible as I've said before.

Some generation at low demand times is used to pump water up to a lake higher than the generator. This water is the allowed to run down through a hydro electric generator when demand is high.

Sorry if you cannot agree with these points but 14 years in the power generation industry gives me confidence that I am correct

- generation at low demand times, a bit like night store heaters then, finding a use for generated but unused energy, is it ?
- how much of this low demand / no demand is absorbed by this wonderful Dinorwig reservoir ?
- how many mi££ions of hard cash is running power stations through the night that can't be switched off ?

Assuming as you say the concept of waste is impossible, are you are saying all power generated from any source including coal, windy-mills, wave, bio-mass etc generators in the UK, are all going to Dinorwig too and that's why there is no wasted electricity in the UK ?

bryanb

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Assuming as you say the concept of waste is impossible, are you are saying all power generated from any source including coal, windy-mills, wave, bio-mass etc generators in the UK, are all going to Dinorwig too and that's why there is no wasted electricity in the UK ?

No not saying that.
There is NO wasted generation. If a generator is not excited it will not generate. Therefore switch off the exciter and surprise!! Generation stops.
At the risk of repitition A/C electricity cannot be wasted or stored in the form of electricity.

espresso

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Mi££ions of units are wasted from unused generation after midnight every say of every year and have been since we as a nation were weaned off domestic gas-lamps and street lamps, hence the reason in the first place for the very invention of a cheap night time tariff.

It beggars belief that you believe that electricity is wasted by continuing generation when there is no requirement!

Electricity is not produced unless there is a demand for it. The supply needs to match the actual demand and this is maintained by constantly controlling generation and import/export.

Bidirectional cables exist between France, Netherlands and Ireland and have done for decades.

If you want to learn, educate yourself by reading:

How the National Grid is balanced here

Balancing FAQ here

See the actual real time demand including export/import here

If you are still interested, read the monthly Balancing Services reports published here

Electricity is far to costly to simply waste as you suggest!

Richie-from-the-Boro

espresso wrote: »

~~~snip~~~

- I was enjoying that with bryanb espresso,
- now you've boogared it for me
- before you go, just how do they get all that leccy to Dinorwig ?
- do they dip the live cables in the lake to warm it up, go on tell me is that how they do it ?
- is that why there's no wasted leccy ?

bryanb

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- I was enjoying that with bryanb espresso,
- now you've boogared it for me
- before you go, just how do they get all that leccy to Dinorwig ?
- do they dip the live cables in the lake to warm it up, go on tell me is that how they do it ?
- is that why there's no wasted leccy ?

Perhaps we could discuss Megavar absorbtion instead?