Apple Computer Returns – Advice, please?

AuntyC

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can help out with some basic consumer/legal advice.

I bought a refurbished laptop from Apple last August, which included a one-year warranty (hardware only). No problems so far with the computer (fingers crossed!) but on Thursday (2 May) I noticed that the power cable of the charger supplied with it had frayed near to where it connects with the computer, exposing the bare wires. (Seemingly a common problem – the reviews and ratings on Apple's own site speak for themselves. I'm not allowed to post a link because I'm a new user on MSE, but search Apple 85w Magsafe Power Adaptor on the Apple Store for details!)

I can also confirm the damage wasn't due to misuse – I mostly work from home and on the very few occasions that I've taken the computer and charger out and about with me, it has been carefully stowed in a padded compartment in a laptop backpack.

I called Apple to complain and request that a replacement be sent to me and was pretty much made to jump through hoops before they agreed to this. (A 100% charge lasts only a few hours when the computer is in use, so it's useless without its power supply, and I need it for work.) I had to send photographs of the damage, and I was warned that the warranty might not apply, etc., and it took several mentions of Trading Standards, the Sale Of Goods Act and fitness for purpose before a supervisor I'd been passed on to by the original customer services person I spoke to finally said he'd send it out. (The charger costs £65, so I can't imagine that a reasonable person would expect it to last for just eight or nine months before breaking in a potentially dangerous manner.)

That wasn't the end of it. I was then told that I'd have to send back the broken charger (fair enough, I guess). Also, as the new charger would go out that day, I then had to give my credit card details, effectively as "insurance" (my quotes, not theirs) that they'd receive the defective charger. (The debit card that I originally used to buy the computer was not good enough, it seemed – it had to be a credit card.) And if they didn't receive the original charger within 10 business days, my card would be charged. It also appears that they'll assess the damage to the original and if, in their opinion, it isn't down to a defect, I may still be charged.

I received the new charger on the Friday morning along with a prepaid envelope for returning the damaged original (can't fault them for that). I'd explained on the Thursday that I wouldn't be able to get the old charger mailed until today (Tuesday) due to being unable to get to a post office on Friday or Saturday and that it would be shut during the bank holiday. Now I've been sent a reminder stating that if they don't receive the item within the next four business days, my card will be charged.

I can get it in the post this morning (Tuesday), so hopefully it will arrive on time. But "four business days"? They don't seem to appreciate that the Royal Mail can be unreliable, and appear to be counting every day as a business day, regardless of the post office not being open this Sunday or bank holiday Monday. And only five days (only two of them business days by UK standards) have elapsed since my original complaint was made last Thursday, so quite how they've calculated "four days" remaining is anyone's guess!

This whole situation has been stressful (the worry that I might not be able to meet my deadline last week, having to argue with two customer service reps – who, to be fair, were nice guys but whose hands were tied by Apple's policies) and it's possible I may have to pay extra for special delivery in order to get the broken item back to them on time.

Any thoughts on this matter? Could I legally cancel the payment on my card once I get proof of posting? (NB, any PC v Mac comments won't be helpful here – I work in an industry and for companies in which Macs are standard, so that's what I use too.)

wealdroam

AuntyC wrote: »

Any thoughts on this matter?

My thoughts... I think Apple are behaving in exactly the right way. They are ensuring their customer receives the best customer service, whilst at the same time protecting their interests from people who might not want to play fair.

AuntyC wrote: »

Could I legally cancel the payment on my card once I get proof of posting?

I don't know legally whether you can do that or not.
But why would you want to do that?
That just confirms why Apple (and other companies) have to take action to protect themselves, doesn't it?

My suggestion would be to do nothing unless Apple do actually charge your card.
Then with your proof of posting you will be able to demonstrate that the thing has been returned.
You did get a certificate of posting didn't you?

AuntyC

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I get what you're saying, but I don't feel that Apple are giving me anything like the best customer service.

Firstly, despite my warranty being valid, I got the impression that they were trying to claim it wasn't their problem and hoping I'd back down. It's clear from reading the reviews that a lot of their customers who've been similarly affected have – presumably either because they don't want the aggro or think they have no choice – just coughed up for a new charger. Some say they're on their third or fourth within just a couple of years, which at £65 a pop must be nice for Apple.

I pretty much had to threaten to make a consumer complaint before they agreed to send me a replacement. I think if I hadn't had a leg to stand on they'd have told me no can do and stuck to it, no matter what. So why could they not have said from the word go, as soon as I'd explained the situation, "OK, we'll send a replacement, you send back the broken item and we'll take it from there."? ie after a five-minute conversation, not the best part of an hour spent discussing it with an adviser and then his supervisor and taking and emailing photos of the damage. (Both very nice guys, incidentally, who wanted to help, but who seemed to be limited by Apple's customer service policy.)

Secondly, regarding my giving them the card number – I realise that this allowed them to get the item out to me by the Friday, rather than following receipt of the damaged charger, which was very much appreciated and I'll concede fair enough had that been all there was to it. However, it's not as simple as "If we receive the broken item within 10 days, that's it, end of". Naturally, I'm hoping THEY'LL play fair and accept that the damage occurred because the materials used in the cable insulation are substandard. Or that, if there's a postal delay and it arrives after a correctly calculated 10 business days, they'll take the date of the proof of posting into account. (And yes, I did get it – that's why I mentioned it in my original post).

However, they could still charge me if, after receiving it, they decide to blame the damage on me. (Even though, as I've previously said, my usage of the item was on the gentler side what a laptop charger might reasonably be expected to withstand). Or ditto if there's a postal delay and they receive it after 10 days. In which case, not only will I be £65 down, but the onus will be on me to prove that the original item – an item I no longer have in my possession – was not fit for purpose.

I've been inconvenienced by the failure of an expensive item after eight months' use and again, the reviews seem to suggest that Apple are aware of the problems with it (which have been going on for years) and are doing little or nothing to put things right. Which is why I'm somewhat reluctant to give Apple the benefit of the doubt.

cdavies1960

If you still have the power charger, keep hold of it.

This has happened to me and currently Rhonnda Cynon Taf Trading Standards want to know of any more of these issues in the UK.

Effectively in the USA. Apple has been forced to recall these devices and issue financial payouts to customers who have been in touch or have these devices. As well as be provided a free replacement power pack.

It is a fire risk (only type this into youtube). As well as a serious electrocution risk.

Best of luck.

AuntyC

@cdavies1960, I've sent you a PM.

wealdroam

AuntyC wrote: »

Firstly, despite my warranty being valid, I got the impression that they were trying to claim it wasn't their problem and hoping I'd back down. It's clear from reading the reviews that a lot of their customers who've been similarly affected have – presumably either because they don't want the aggro or think they have no choice – just coughed up for a new charger. Some say they're on their third or fourth within just a couple of years, which at £65 a pop must be nice for Apple.

I am not sure why you think Apple should supply you with a replacement charger free of charge just because you have told them it has been handled carefully.
Surely you can expect them to want to confirm for themselves that the item hasn't been abused.
The fact that lots of other customers have seen the same problem is not proof that your charger is inherently faulty.

AuntyC wrote: »

I pretty much had to threaten to make a consumer complaint before they agreed to send me a replacement. I think if I hadn't had a leg to stand on they'd have told me no can do and stuck to it, no matter what. So why could they not have said from the word go, as soon as I'd explained the situation, "OK, we'll send a replacement, you send back the broken item and we'll take it from there."? ie after a five-minute conversation, not the best part of an hour spent discussing it with an adviser and then his supervisor and taking and emailing photos of the damage. (Both very nice guys, incidentally, who wanted to help, but who seemed to be limited by Apple's customer service policy.)

To answer your question "why did they give in eventually"...
Again you seem to think that the supplier should instantly agree with your opinion without being given the opportunity to assert for themselves.

Your stance isn't helped by the use of phrases "I pretty much had to threaten"... did you have to threaten or not?
Earlier you used the phrase "I got the impression..." pretty wooly stuff.

AuntyC wrote: »

...they'll take the date of the proof of posting into account. (And yes, I did get it – that's why I mentioned it in my original post).

Sorry, didn't see it in the original post.
Having re-read the OP, I still can't see where you mentioned proof of posting... but nevermind.

AuntyC wrote: »

However, they could still charge me if, after receiving it, they decide to blame the damage on me. (Even though, as I've previously said, my usage of the item was on the gentler side what a laptop charger might reasonably be expected to withstand). Or ditto if there's a postal delay and they receive it after 10 days. In which case, not only will I be £65 down, but the onus will be on me to prove that the original item – an item I no longer have in my possession – was not fit for purpose.

Again, why are Apple not allowed to judge the damage for themselves?
You seem to be upset because they appear to not believe you.
I have no figures to back it up, but I bet they, and other retailers, get lots of warranty claims where the fault is caused my mis-use or user error.
Of course I am not saying that this is the situation in your case, but you must try and understand their position.

AuntyC wrote: »

I've been inconvenienced by the failure of an expensive item after eight months' use and again, the reviews seem to suggest that Apple are aware of the problems with it (which have been going on for years) and are doing little or nothing to put things right. Which is why I'm somewhat reluctant to give Apple the benefit of the doubt.

Another woolly phrase "the reviews seem to suggest".
Whatever the reviews may say, they can only report on that individual item.

I understand you are claiming under the warranty, but please remember that if you were seeking a remedy under the Sale of Goods Act (which you pretty much threatened to), the seller is quite entitled to ask you to prove that the fault is inherent... i.e. that the fault existed at the point of sale but not necessarily apparent at that time.

cdavies1960

wealdroam wrote: »

I understand you are claiming under the warranty, but please remember that if you were seeking a remedy under the Sale of Goods Act (which you pretty much threatened to), the seller is quite entitled to ask you to prove that the fault is inherent... i.e. that the fault existed at the point of sale but not necessarily apparent at that time.

This should be sufficient evidence:

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/11/08/apple-launches-magsafe-adapter-replacement-program/

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127

Apple seem to be turning a blind eye to this everywhere except USA where they have been forced to accept liability and damages.

dalesrider

AuntyC wrote: »

Could I legally cancel the payment on my card once I get proof of posting?

No.
There is no way to block the payment.
Not even sure you could dispute it if they did either.

Some people will scream Cancel your card as lost stolen..... Still won't stop them taking payment. Odds on they have already taken a auth against the chance they do not get the goods back, so already have a auth code to take payment.

Also 10 working days just happens to be the max time a auth can sit on your account.
So I'm betting that its aleady sat at auth awaiting to be fully claimed.

bod1467

cdavies1960 wrote: »

This should be sufficient evidence:

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/11/08/apple-launches-magsafe-adapter-replacement-program/

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127

Apple seem to be turning a blind eye to this everywhere except USA where they have been forced to accept liability and damages.

Does yours look like the image in those links? Whilst Apple are not admitting liability anywhere except the USA, if you had to go to court (small claims) over this then you would only need to prove their liability on the balance of probabilities - their admittance of liability in the USA would count heavily against them.

cdavies1960

bod1467 wrote: »

Does yours look like the image in those links? Whilst Apple are not admitting liability anywhere except the USA, if you had to go to court (small claims) over this then you would only need to prove their liability on the balance of probabilities - their admittance of liability in the USA would count heavily against them.

I can assure you on my todo list. :rotfl:

AuntyC

wealdroam wrote: »

I am not sure why you think Apple should supply you with a replacement charger free of charge just because you have told them it has been handled carefully.
Surely you can expect them to want to confirm for themselves that the item hasn't been abused.
The fact that lots of other customers have seen the same problem is not proof that your charger is inherently faulty.

Another woolly phrase "the reviews seem to suggest". Whatever the reviews may say, they can only report on that individual item.

It's not Apple wanting to see for themselves that I object to, it was the time that customer services initially spent insisting they couldn't help – basically judging the damage before seeing it for themselves. So if it's unreasonable of me to expect them to take my word for it that the damage is not down to me, isn't it equally unreasonable of them to insist, without seeing the damage, that I am to blame for it?

And no, it's not proof, but the negative reviews of this item on Apple's own site by far outnumber the positive ones which at the very least points to the possibility of an inherent problem. (Of course, this may just mean that happy customers don't bother commenting on the item but maybe not all the unhappy customers post either.) Taken at face value the reviews suggest that an unacceptably high number of these chargers, and not just the occasional aberration, are failing within months of purchase. And "woolly" as "suggest" may sound, I have to say it because without a review or rating by everyone who's bought one, it's impossible to say how many people are happy/unhappy with their purchase. But a large number of the reviews appear to support my own experience, so I'd be foolish to ignore them, at least until they're proven to give a false impression of the product.

I get that every case should be judged on its own merit – perhaps some do fail due to careless treatment, the family rottweiler using them as a chew toy, etc. But when I look at the cable and see that the insulation has split, then go online and read post after post from people detailing similar problems (as opposed to praising how robust and well made the device is), it leads me to suspect that there's an intrinsic problem with the design or materials. Also, people are reporting it time and again – having to buy multiple replacements within a relatively short space of time. One fail may mean you got a lemon, but several in quick succession suggests (Oops! Woolly alert!) that there may just be something wrong with the product. Unless all the people who negatively review them are excessively rough or clumsy and lying through their teeth or by omission, might it point towards flimsy construction?

wealdroam wrote: »

To answer your question "why did they give in eventually"...
Again you seem to think that the supplier should instantly agree with your opinion without being given the opportunity to assert for themselves.

Your stance isn't helped by the use of phrases "I pretty much had to threaten"... did you have to threaten or not?
Earlier you used the phrase "I got the impression..." pretty wooly stuff.

I'm not saying the supplier should have instantly agreed with my opinion, but they could have been less defensive, and quicker to say "OK, send it in and we'll take a look at it." Instead, I got a guy attempting to convince me that Apple wasn't liable. I say "got the impression" as an acknowledgement that this was my subjective view but to clarify, the option of sending the item back to Apple for assessment was not mentioned until I was put through to the supervisor.

So why the inconsistency? First I have customer services telling me Apple aren't liable, then I have the supervisor telling me they'll send out a replacement and take a look at the broken item. If they have a policy and procedure to follow, why did customer services not ask me to submit photos of the damage or ask me to send the broken charger in for inspection in the first place? Why didn't this happen until I spoke to the supervisor?

Purely my opinion here, but it makes me think that if Apple knew for certain that their legal position was watertight, that the blame lay squarely with me or that for whatever reason I didn't have a leg to stand on, all my mentions of Trading Standards, the Sale Of Goods Act, fitness for purpose, legal action, etc wouldn't have made the slightest difference. But these are what got me put through to the supervisor, and what got the replacement charger sent to me.

I'm still possibly £65 down depending on their decision. But had I not been prepared to fight my corner and had I meekly said OK when the first customer services guy told me no can do, I'd definitely be £65 down, there being, as far as I'm aware, no alternative charger available for my laptop.

Only "pretty woolly" now? Regarding "pretty much threatened" – I didn't want to give the impression that I was aggressive or hostile towards the customer service people – our conversation remained civil. But yes, I threatened to take legal/consumer advice against Apple if they didn't resolve the issue. Verbally and in writing.

wealdroam wrote: »

Sorry, didn't see it in the original post. Having re-read the OP, I still can't see where you mentioned proof of posting... but nevermind.

Final paragraph: "Any thoughts on this matter? Could I legally cancel the payment on my card once I get proof of posting?"

wealdroam wrote: »

Again, why are Apple not allowed to judge the damage for themselves? You seem to be upset because they appear to not believe you. I have no figures to back it up, but I bet they, and other retailers, get lots of warranty claims where the fault is caused my mis-use or user error. Of course I am not saying that this is the situation in your case, but you must try and understand their position.

Oh, I must indeed, and I do… I really do. But also understandable, I think, is my annoyance at the failure, after just eight months, of an expensive and essential piece of kit, exacerbated by the fact that I had a deadline to meet and their initial attitude. At the risk of repeating myself, had I been asked, nearer the outset, to send the item to them for evaluation without them having claimed (sight unseen) that the problem with it wasn't down to Apple, I'd have been less wound up about it, and less inclined to worry that the assessment might be biased in their favour.

wealdroam wrote: »

I understand you are claiming under the warranty, but please remember that if you were seeking a remedy under the Sale of Goods Act (which you pretty much threatened to), the seller is quite entitled to ask you to prove that the fault is inherent... i.e. that the fault existed at the point of sale but not necessarily apparent at that time.

So the cable is back with them now, for them to inspect at their convenience. But it will be assessed by Apple and not an independent party, which doesn't fill me with optimism, given the inconsistencies in their procedure so far.

Thanks, wealdroam, I appreciate your having put so much time and effort into sharing your views on this – most helpful. :T