ATM Fraud

chattychappy

meer53 wrote: »

Barclays will investigate, but if the card and the PIN were used, and the ATM is one local to you, this may not be the case.

As you say, circumstantial evidence will be important - the FOS takes this into account. The bank must prove, but only on the balance of probabilities. That is the standard a court/FOS would apply if it went that far.

It happened twice to me, once with HSBC, once with Nationwide (inside job - as mentioned above).

With HSBC, it WAS an ATM at my branch and of course the PIN was used. There were 3 withdrawals. The first two times I was refunded without explanation. The third time they said the previous times were ex-gracia because it wasn't worth investigating (£20 each time) and I'd been a good customer. The third time there was a ballyhoo and I had to escalate it. They were insistent that the card had been used - they'd checked printouts from the machine. At the time it was used, I knew where it was and that I hadn't used it. But it was the nearest ATM to my house!!

The error - somewhat bizarre - was the card used was simply linked to my account in error. Because of some IT problem when issuing the card to a new customer, the bank had manually assigned the card to my account by looking up surname, initials and sort code. Two of us had the same details. Two cards were on my account.

So indeed - the card had been used!! No fraud. No dishonesty. Just human error.

It was a few years ago - probably (??) wouldn't happen now.

luci

I would be concerned if a PIN hadn't turned up a week after the card. They normally arrive within 2-3 days of each other.

I would suggest asking when the PIN was posted.

dalesrider

Well given its a new account. Then it will all be system based and no one will have any fingers in to mess up.
So given you have the card " locked away in my filing cabinet".
Then I take it you have checked its still there and are 100% certain that only you have the key for said cabinet.
So a fair guess is that someone you know will have been in and accessed card and the PIN, when it arrived.

I take it you have reported to the police. So that they can get on the case and see if any CCTV is avaiable from the area of the ATM.

chattychappy

dalesrider wrote: »

So a fair guess is that someone you know will have been in and accessed card and the PIN, when it arrived.

But just a guess... I'm sure there is indeed a lot of cardholder fraud/family members involved in this kind of thing though.

dalesrider wrote: »

Well given its a new account. Then it will all be system based and no one will have any fingers in to mess up.

That's quite an assumption. There was insider fraud (IT related) on an account of mine. But it is also possible the card was intercepted in the post, used, repacked and the card sent on. It really would be interesting to see if the PIN turns up.

dalesrider wrote: »

I take it you have reported to the police. So that they can get on the case and see if any CCTV is avaiable from the area of the ATM.

I think it's worth a try, but the police view the CC as the victim of such frauds, not the cardholder. Policy is to push people back to the CC unless they have witness info (eg wish to report a family member).

As an aside, I notice that some ATMs overseas have cameras installed to preserve a record of people using them (and presumably attempts to tamper with them). Not sure how common that is in the UK - think I've only seen it inside branches.

honizz

I watched a program a few weeks back that showed what skimming devices on ATM looked like.

I couldn't believe it, it wasn't like a device that was attached to the machine so it looked obvious. The whole skimming device was placed over the upper part of the machine, there was no visual difference between the fake and the real. Then there was the tiniest of holes directly above the keys to record your pin. The only safe way to use it was to cover from above the keys completely and type your pin.
This World is not safe

dalesrider

chattychappy wrote: »

But just a guess... I'm sure there is indeed a lot of cardholder fraud/family members involved in this kind of thing though.

We can only guess, as we do not have access to the systems to see what type of card was used.

Vast majority of UK atm fraud is in relation to someone the cardholder knows, where the card is still in their possession.

chattychappy wrote: »

That's quite an assumption. There was insider fraud (IT related) on an account of mine. But it is also possible the card was intercepted in the post, used, repacked and the card sent on. It really would be interesting to see if the PIN turns up.

So how does that IT person create a card? Gain access to said PIN?
Remember banks DO NOT make cards. They are made at 3rd party production facilities.
So no way could a bank staff member, now do what you suggest. They could pull the card to branch, but that means leaving a trail as to who has requested, and where it has to be sent. They then have to use a card reader to copy the card. All product handling like this is duel control (2 people have to do) so again it is not going to happen. Also pulling a PIN to branch should not be a option.

The case you mentioned in previous post will not happen now as cards and accounts are all system generated wth the only human interaction of clicking create. There is no manual linking of card to account.

chattychappy wrote: »

I think it's worth a try, but the police view the CC as the victim of such frauds, not the cardholder. Policy is to push people back to the CC unless they have witness info (eg wish to report a family member).

OP should have been asked to report to police anyway. That should be standard practise. In cases like this.

chattychappy wrote: »

As an aside, I notice that some ATMs overseas have cameras installed to preserve a record of people using them (and presumably attempts to tamper with them). Not sure how common that is in the UK - think I've only seen it inside branches.

No idea, but its very easy to cover your face....

honizz.

Op said has never used card.

[Deleted User]

honizz wrote: »

The only safe way to use it was to cover from above the keys completely and type your pin.

Nope! That isn't safe either. The hardware used for card skimming often includes special number pads that can be placed over the pre-existing ones that look no different and record the key presses.

The safest way to withdraw money is to do it in branch. If you use an ATM you're at risk.

chattychappy

dalesrider wrote: »

So how does that IT person create a card? Gain access to said PIN?
Remember banks DO NOT make cards. They are made at 3rd party production facilities.
So no way could a bank staff member, now do what you suggest.

That analysis is naive. You have said you work for a CC company and use this to support your posts. I work as a lawyer in fraud/financial crime and am originally from IT. I'm leaving it that.

dalesrider

chattychappy wrote: »

That analysis is naive. You have said you work for a CC company and use this to support your posts. I work as a lawyer in fraud/financial crime and am originally from IT. I'm leaving it that.

Not naive. Just someone with a solid basis on how it all works.

To do what you imply would require a lot of people from totally unrelated area's and companies to be working together.
If that was the case, then it would be rife...
Which as someone who deals with the sharp end of this. Would know about.

John_Pierpoint

dalesrider wrote: »

OP should have been asked to report to police anyway. That should be standard practise. In cases like this.

Phone the fraud hot line and they will confirm that it is the bank that has been defrauded not the customer.

Of course that is rubbish, the systems are not 100% secure, as the boffins at Cambridge repeatedly demonstrate.

However there is little hope that the local plods can cope with a burglary, so no chance that they can do anything about electronic fraud. If they don't issue a crime number the crime does not exist and that helps the statistics look a bit better.

The "problem" was handed back to the card providers about four years ago.