RBS being difficult?

Binky_Alexander

I wrote to Natwest recently to ask them for information on my accounts/loans/potential PPI from when I had an account with them (1992 - 2008). They passed this to the main RBS PPI team who then wrote to me saying my current address was not what they had on record with my account, despite me giving them my two previous addresses on the letter! So I sent them copies of documents requestedm, including two statement forms confirming my two previous addresses.
They THEN write back to me, asking me to send them details of the accounts I want them to look into, which was exactly what I wrote to Natwest to confirm in the first place!! So we've gone round in a big unhelpful circle.
It was a long time ago, so i don't think I have the loan agreement documents. Do I just go to the FOS for help as RBS are being difficult??

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

[Deleted User]

Binky_Alexander wrote: »

It was a long time ago, so i don't think I have the loan agreement documents. Do I just go to the FOS for help as RBS are being difficult??

You're looking for information about finance from twenty years ago.

FOS can't force the Bank to produce records they no longer have.

Banks typically keep records for around six years and only keep them for longer if the account remains active.

What you can do is send the Bank a Subject Access Request (SAR) letter which costs £10 but will provide everything the Bank has kept on file for you for at least the last six years and (sometimes) more.
Excellent template here;
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1475553

However, if you get nothing useful back from this I think you're going to have to accept your complaint is over before it's begun.

dazza12

Is it RBS or specifically Natwest that you're after the information from?

RBS are notoriously difficult to deal with when it comes to archive information and will often fail to comply with the 40 day SAR timescale. They'll insist on stating that they only have to provide 6 years worth of information. This information will be inconsistent - for instance you'll have a letter telling you no information is available for a particular product, and on the same day get a set of notes and statements for the same account.

Once you write back and advise them that they've failed to meet the 40 day SAR timescale, suddenly more information becomes available. And if you then write back after 14 days advising that you're taking further legal action, they become even more co-operative.

RBS/Natwest staff have access to something called the 'Natwest Archive'. Shortly after the merger when both computer systems were combined, the old Natwest computer system was frozen in time. No amendments could be made, it was read only. This contained details of all accounts that were open in 1991/2 up until the date both systems were combined (4th October 2002). This system is available to staff on a section called 'back office' ('front office' is the system they use for customer facing enquiries and this contains data from 2002 onwards).

I've had statements sent to me in 3 bundles. Firstly the standard 7 years, then the data from 2002 until the 7 year point. I received a bundle containing statements from 1991 until 2002 earlier this week. Finally I've had a call from the SAR team advising that statement data from the opening of the account (September 1988) will follow - this is a mixture of older archive data and microfiche. This is expected within the next few days.

It did take a fight. In my experience, I have a couple of Natwest staff members as friends, and advice from the ICO to back me up. However if you know the data is available (it is for all Natwest customers) then persevere with it and it will be forthcoming.

Binky_Alexander

Thanks for your guidance. Can I still pursue this if they have written back in the 40 day timeline, even if it is a hokey rebuttal asking me for the same info I asked them. Should I mention that I know about the Natwest Archive?!
Its deflating to feel that you're nowhere before you've even really begun...

IJM

Binky_Alexander wrote: »

... Should I mention that I know about the Natwest Archive? ...

@dazza12, I am interested in the answer to this question too.

I need to put a DSAR in to Natwest and the info I need is dated 1988 thru 1991.

dazza12

Binky_Alexander wrote: »

Thanks for your guidance. Can I still pursue this if they have written back in the 40 day timeline, even if it is a hokey rebuttal asking me for the same info I asked them. Should I mention that I know about the Natwest Archive?!
Its deflating to feel that you're nowhere before you've even really begun...

You can reply within the 40 day timeline to thank them for the information that they've supplied, but reminding them that you still require x, y and z to meet the terms of your DSAR. Once the 40 day timeline is up, write to them again advising that they've failed to supply you with information (list what's missing) and give them a reasonable time to respond - 14 days is common.

The likelyhood is that Natwest will then treat this as a complaint and will advise you they'll complete their investigation in 8 weeks. A 'letter before action' to them advising that it's a DSAR and that they had 40 days to comply, given them a further 7 days or you will pursue this through the courts/complain to the ICO.

I subsequently received as a response to the last letter advising that they will be ordering statements. I was invited to call the person named, and did. I advised at that point I was aware of the Natwest archive - I was armed with dates of what it covered and when it was active. A few minutes later and I had a verbal promise that all statement data (current, pre 7 years and Natwest archive) would be ordered, which has subsequently been received. A few days after this, I received a call from the same person to confirm that records back to 1988 had been located and would be processed and forwarded to me. I'm still waiting for this.

The chances are if you mention the Natwest archive in the letter, it will be ignored. Many Natwest staff will deny it's existence, and many branch staff will be unaware of it. It's not supposed to be public knowledge, and if you start quoting this to them they'll play the commercial sensitivity card. Let them fail the DSAR before you start to mention it.

@IJM - their computer system went live in 1991/2 and anything prior to this was microfiched. When I spoke to them it was advised they'd do their best to search, but they could not guarantee any data prior to 1991. In my experience they did find the data, your mileage may vary.

For reference, RBS have a system called Front Office that deals with their day to day needs - statements, transaction data, applications etc. This is what CS staff refer to when you visit the branch or call them. There is an additional system called Back Office, that deals with other aspects of the business. One of the parts of Back Office is Natwest's old computer system frozen in time on 4th October 2002. What's interesting is that not only do they have access to statements and ledgers, they also have an events system that includes every decision made on charges, whether automated or manual.

You may feel deflated now, but don't give up. The data is there, but Natwest will play hard ball thinking you'll give up. Forget the 40 days, it will take months for Natwest to comply.

-taff

If you complain immediately to the ICO after 40 days and they have processed your payment, it won't hurt.

[Deleted User]

dazza12 wrote: »

. Forget the 40 days, it will take months for Natwest to comply.

Aren't you just applying your own sorry experience to everyone else here?
While I'm certain plenty of people have experienced delays with Subject Access Requests, if everyone was waiting "months" for NatWest to respond I'm sure the ICO would have already taken action against them. I've not seen a lot of evidence of this on the forum either.

dazza12

Moneyineptitude wrote: »

Aren't you just applying your own sorry experience to everyone else here?
While I'm certain plenty of people have experienced delays with Subject Access Requests, if everyone was waiting "months" for NatWest to respond I'm sure the ICO would have already taken action against them. I've not seen a lot of evidence of this on the forum either.

Wow - who rattled your cage. Of course you wouldn't have seen any evidence. I doubt you look at the specific threads outside of this part of the forum that don't match your view. Your view being that the OP wouldn't get data from 20 years ago, and that banks 'typically' keep data for 6 years.

My sorry experience? Seems quite positive to me. I got statements back to 1991 and have a promise for further ones back to 1988 along with agreements for loans from the same time. If I'd listened to some of the negative voices on here I'd not have bothered.

Although I said months, we're only just in month 3 since I put in the SAR, but it's still not completely complied with. Some people get their data within the 40 days, but it's rare. On average RBS don't comply - but people tend to trust banks thinking what they've had within the 40 days is all they hold on them. However I'd expect most people would get a bit suspicious if a bank tells them that's everything on them if nothing appeared for an active, main current account.

It's unlikely you'd have heard about any action taken against RBS. ICO rarely publish details about breaches unless they're extremely serious (such as the loss of unencrypted data in the post). Otherwise the data breaches every day in the NHS alone would flood their news feed.

sussexbhoy

I have a friend who has worked at Natwest since we both left school in 1988 and he's just clarified exactly what dazza12 has posted here. Natwest and RBS have all banking data on all their customers (past and present), so yes they will have all the information from 20 years ago.

It seems some of the 'alleged' experts on here believe that after 6 years everything gets destroyed just because the banks say so, it's more probable that most banks and credit card companies keep or archive way past the 6 years they just don't admit it.

[Deleted User]

dazza12 wrote: »

Wow - who rattled your cage. Of course you wouldn't have seen any evidence. I doubt you look at the specific threads outside of this part of the forum that don't match your view. Your view being that the OP wouldn't get data from 20 years ago, and that banks 'typically' keep data for 6 years.

I'm well aware that some people get information going back further than six years and my posts often reflect that, especially when I suggest people send for a SAR. However, if the potential complainant has ceased to be a customer of the Bank in question the FSA guidelines are for all unnecessary information over six years old be destroyed.

It was your warning to the OP to "forget 40 days, NatWest will take months to respond" that I took issue with. I think you were being unnecessarily alarmist.

sussexboy wrote: »

it's more probable that most banks and credit card companies keep or archive way past the 6 years they just don't admit it.

I'm not such a conspiracy theorist (or an "alleged" expert), in fact I had information from HSBC from well over six years for my own complaint.
The point is not that they don't keep information for longer than six years, but that they destroy information no longer deemed necessary and this usually means anyone who is no longer a current customer will fail to procure anything older than six years.