PCN dispute - help needed

now3d

Hello all


I'm in a fix, and looking for some help. I've read all the guidance on the site, and written up a summary below.


Thank you for reading.


PCN was issued while I was parked on a single yellow line, unloading boxes every 10 minutes. I displayed an unloading notice in the window of the car.

Could I ask for opinion :-

• Can I challenge on the basis of the lack of street signage?
• My informal appeal was rejected on two grounds:

- (lie) constant observation of no unloading for 20mins.
- Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) signage some 200 Metres away (different street, area etc). Indicating the controlled times. I never saw these. The whole of the street I was on has no restricted hours signs relating to single yellow lines.
- This page has an illustrating of what a CPZ sign looks like: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/parking-rules
- This same web page indicates 5mins unloading activity. So my 10min round trip to 5th floor flat fell foul of that.

• Can I challenge on the basis of the lie told by Civic Enforcement Officer (that there was no unloading)?
• Is every 10 mins sufficiently "continuous"? – I am considering to ask my landlady for a statement to agree with this position.
• Due to the CEO not sealing the envelope, the paper was wet, and part of the text in one of the categories is unreadable as sheet was stuck together. (Terms relating to 50% reduction..)
• As per parking PCN ticket requirements, the "The grounds under which you can make an appeal" are not specified:
• http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/parking-ticket-appeals#step2
• Is enforcement officer on commission? Is it in his interests to lie in this way on official statement?

A) There were no restrictions signed on the road, but Westminster use parking zones. At the entry point of those roads they say there is a sign stating the restrictions. How I am supposed to know this while driving I do not know.


Civic Enforcement Officer told me he only observed at the beginning, and end of 20 minute period.

C) My informal appeal has been rejected on the grounds that the Civic Enforcement Officer has lied and stated that the vehicle was under constant observation with no unloading for 20 minutes.

D) Civic Enforcement Officer has digital device, logging his actions. I wonder if I can use the timestamps on this to prove he was doing other work in between. Maybe also GPS?

E) When I spoke to him, he admitted that he was off elsewhere in between the 20min period, and only compared tyre positions to make his judgement.

Do you think I have a good case based on these points?

Coupon-mad

now3d wrote: »

PCN was issued while I was parked on a single yellow line, unloading boxes every 10 minutes. I displayed an unloading notice in the window of the car.

Good, is that visible in the pics of the PCN on the windscreen? If so, point it out in your formal appeal in due course.

Could I ask for opinion :-

...can I challenge on the basis of the lie told by Civic Enforcement Officer (that there was no unloading)?

Yes that's a point to press forward with, particularly if you add in a letter of corroboration from your landlady which mentions specifically what was being unloaded at which address, and exactly when. But just say 'the CEO was mistaken and by his own admission, did not constantly observe the car'.

• Is every 10 mins sufficiently "continuous"? – I am considering to ask my landlady for a statement to agree with this position.

Yes. You can normally unload for 'as long as is reasonably necessary' with some Traffic Orders stating 'up to 20 minutes as long as the driver is engaged in continuous loading/unloading' or words to that effect. Ask for a copy of the Traffic Order (the legal document about that street's restrictions) in your next appeal letter.

• Due to the CEO not sealing the envelope, the paper was wet, and part of the text in one of the categories is unreadable as sheet was stuck together. (Terms relating to 50% reduction..)

Yes. If the text on the PCN is unreadable then take a photocopy and include it with your appeal, with a paragraph saying it was illegible due to the envelope being left unsealed by the CEO so you've not got a valid PCN and have not been able to read some of the statutory wording.

• As per parking PCN ticket requirements, the "The grounds under which you can make an appeal" are not specified:
• http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/parking-ticket-appeals#step2

Westminster PCNs are not known to be flawed in their wording - so I would stop reading that useless MSE article (the bit about 5mins loading was wrong too).

• Is enforcement officer on commission? Is it in his interests to lie in this way on official statement?

No they are not on a 'commission' and would deny they have targets - but in truth they do have a Service Level Agreement (SLA) with 'Westmonster'. SLA = targets by another name!! Yes it would be in the interests of an unscrupulous CEO to lie because it's tickets that he is ultimately judged on.

A) There were no restrictions signed on the road, but Westminster use parking zones. At the entry point of those roads they say there is a sign stating the restrictions. How I am supposed to know this while driving I do not know.

This isn't useful in your appeal unless CPZ signs were missing. CPZs are commonplace in London and there do not have to be extra signs at the line.

Civic Enforcement Officer told me he only observed at the beginning, and end of 20 minute period.

Then include that in your formal appeal when you get the Notice to Owner.

C) My informal appeal has been rejected on the grounds that the Civic Enforcement Officer has lied and stated that the vehicle was under constant observation with no unloading for 20 minutes.

All informal appeals are rejected - it never means you have no case. Carry on; NTO next.

D) Civic Enforcement Officer has digital device, logging his actions. I wonder if I can use the timestamps on this to prove he was doing other work in between. Maybe also GPS?

You can ask for a copy of the CEO's notebook re the two observations of your car, also specifically including the redacted page(s) showing where he was in between. State it like that and say 'selected excerpts' regarding your car only will not be enough and if they fail to provide this you will require the full notebook logs to be produced at adjudication.

E) When I spoke to him, he admitted that he was off elsewhere in between the 20min period, and only compared tyre positions to make his judgement.

Say that in your formal appeal to the NTO when you get it. And if the CEO's notes (when you get them) show just tyre valve notes then other streets being visited, you'd have great evidence for the adjudicator. Tyre valve positions are not enough to prove this particular contravention if he just wandered off in between rather than constantly observing for any signs of loading. He needed to 'constantly observe' for at least 5 minutes - and even then you could still have been unloading stuff and can still win an appeal.


Do you think I have a good case based on these points?

Yep because you can unload on a single yellow line, it's an exemption.

Mainly based on the simple fact you were unloading and can get your landlady to write a letter corroborating that, you should win this appeal in the end. See above in red for my thoughts about your other secondary points.

Westminster actually DO normally allow formal appeals after the NTO, where a person can show some evidence that they were indeed loading. So don't say 'the CEO lied' - just keep it factual when you come to complete the formal appeal page which will be on the NTO (will be sent soon).

The 'discount' will be gone - that's the bribe Councils offer and it's why they routinely reject informal challenges. But it doesn't matter as you are likely to win in the end.


HTH

now3d

Hi Coupon-mad!
Many thanks for your reply with information.

I will make the appeal. I don't think I have a photo of the "unloading notice" in the window, it just has the tyre and PCN notice visible.

I do wonder if because it was a ~10min round trip that will allow him his "5 mins of constant observation". However, I do feel if he had only observed for more than 10mins he would have been able to discuss with me while I was unloading.

Thanks again for your reply.

Coupon-mad

Keep the faith and do not ignore any letters that arrive, thinking that you've already appealed. Reply again at each stage. You may need to go to adjudication to win - but hopefully it will be cancelled now.

Loading/unloading is exempt so keep insisting, with corroboration from the landlady.

now3d

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Keep the faith and do not ignore any letters that arrive, thinking that you've already appealed. Reply again at each stage. You may need to go to adjudication to win - but hopefully it will be cancelled now.

Loading/unloading is exempt so keep insisting, with corroboration from the landlady.

At appeal it was rejected again. They stated:

Note: They failed to include any of the documents that they refer to at the end of the letter.



=======
Contravention Code: 01 Contravention Description: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours

Dear Mr XYZ
Traffic Management Act 2004 NOTICE OF REJECTION
City of Westminster
Thank you for the Representation made on receipt of the Notice to Owner (Nt0) regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), which was issued by a Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) for an alleged parking contravention.
I have considered all the information you have provided but I am unable to cancel the PCN. This letter is therefore a formal Notice of Rejection to your representations.
The PCN was issued because the CEO believed that the vehicle was parked on a single yellow line during the hours of control.

I have rejected your Representation because the evidence supplied by the CEO confirms that the vehicle was parked for longer than permitted.

Having checked your Representation I can see that your main challenge is based on the fact the CEO did not observe the vehicle constantly. I must advise that this does not invalidate the PCN. The CEO is not required to watch the vehicle for the entire 20 minute observation time.
On this occasion your vehicle was first observed on 13:52 as the CEO was aware the vehicle was parked for the purpose of loading time was given to complete the activity. The City Council permits a maximum of 20 minutes to load/unload. When the CEO returned at 14:13 the vehicle was parked in the same location and had been parked for longer than the allowed 20 minutes the CEO was correct to issue the PCN.
I have noted that you feel loading is exempt from the restrictions in place; this is not correct. The exemption for loading clearly states that a maximum of 20 minutes is permitted on single yellow line. In light of this I am unable to accept the letter received from your landlady as reason for the PCN to be cancelled.

I can see that you did display a notice in your windscreen and this advised of your contact details; the CEO would not seek out the driver before the issue of a PCN. CEOs are not obliged to make any form of contact with the driver of any vehicle and are instructed to issue PCNs to vehicles which are parked in contravention.

===================

I am unable to accept your parking receipt as reason for the PCN to be cancelled as ills not relevant to the issue of this PCN. Whilst it shows you made an attempt to avoid further PCNs being issued under similar circumstances it is not reason for the cancellation of the PCN stated above.

I am also unable to accept loading as a mitigating circumstance; mitigating circumstances are something which is out of the drivers' control and are not considered an every day activity. Loading is a normal everyday situation where provided that you park in accordance with the loading exemption in place PCNs are not generally issued.
In relation to the signage; the hours of control for yellow lines are stated on the signs at the entry into the controlled parking zone. Only where the hours of control for yellow lines are different from the information stated on this sign will there be a kerb side time plate. I have enclosed the relevant controlled parking zone signage for your perusal. I have also enclosed the relevant Traffic Management Order as per your request.
In relation to the other evidence requested I have enclosed all of the photographs relating to your vehicle and the CEOs activity log. The City Council is obliged to protect other road users and I would be unable to give you any registration numbers that the CEO observed on the day in question; this includes the photographs taken. I must also advise that should you attempt to gather this information via a freedom of information request it is unlikely you will be successful. Data Protection forbids us from giving any information specific to anyone other than yourself. The GPS location of the CEO is included in their activity log.
I appreciate that you may feel your are entitled to compensation for the money lost making this Representation; 1 am unable to offer any compensation payments. You would need to contact our Customer Relations Department. You should contact them in writing and include any evidence that you have in connection with your claim.
Custom Relations PO Box 396 Warrington WA55 1EL
The PCN copy that you have provided does not confirm a procedural impropriety. By your own admission the PCN had been water damaged. The relevant details are still legible and the contact details are clearly visible at the bottom. I have enclosed a PCN copy for your records.
In light of the above I can confirm that the PCN has been issued correctly and you are liable for the charge. In order to avoid future PCNs being issued under similar circumstances I would advise that you always park in accordance with the loading exemption in place. A copy of this has been enclosed.
I have noted that you have recently moved and can confirm that your address will be updated on the system for all further correspondence regarding this PCN. I would advise that you contact the DVLA to have your address permanently updated as any further PCNs issued may be issued to your previous address.
You must now either pay the PCN or appeal the Council's decision to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice.
Please make a payment of £130.00.

===============
Payment can be made by:
- Cheque or Postal Order made payable to 'City of Westminster'. This should be sent to Parking Services, City of Westminster, PO Box 396, Warrington, WA55 I EL. Please state the PCN number on the back of the cheque/PO.
- Visa / Delta / MasterCard / Maestro / Switch by calling Parking Services on 020 7823 4567. Lines are open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
- Online at http://wvvw.westminster.gov.uk/parkingfines
If you want to appeal to a Parking Adjudicator, you will need to read, complete and return the attached appeal form directly to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service. Please do not send the appeal form to us. There is no charge for making an appeal, but the Adjudicator may award costs if you or the City Council have been wholly unreasonable, frivolous or vexatious.
If you 'do not pay or appeal before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be served on the registered keeper of the vehicle increasing the charge by 50%. Failure to pay at this stage may result in the debt being registered at the County Court and the City Council may apply for a warrant to recover the debt.

Yours sincerely

XYZ, Strategic Director for City Management
Parking Services, City Of Westminster PO Box 396 Warrington WA55 1EL

Encs PaTAS Form - Parking Penalty Insert — Loading I Unloading PCN 13/04/2013 (copy) TMO Cabbell Street CPZ Signage 9 x Photographs CEO Activity Log (copy)

The_Slithy_Tove

You'll need to take this on to PATAS, then.
You may want to check out the Pepipoo forum for council tickets if you haven't already. That forum has people who will be able to ensure your PATAS appeal is rock solid.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Coupon-mad

Was there no appeal form, no photos, no CEO's notes and no copy of the PCN attached?

now3d

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Was there no appeal form, no photos, no CEO's notes and no copy of the PCN attached?

Exactly. No appeal form, no photos, no CEO's notes and no copy of the PCN attached,

Only info that I scanned and pasted on the forum.

Does this mean they failed and I win?

Coupon-mad

now3d wrote: »

Exactly. No appeal form, no photos, no CEO's notes and no copy of the PCN attached,

Only info that I scanned and pasted on the forum.

Does this mean they failed and I win?

It means they failed, and you should win. On another thread on pepipoo someone never got a PATAS form so they rang up PATAS who said send your appeal with a copy of the Notice of Rejection and pointing out all your appeal points and the fact that the NoR had no enclosures whatsoever, which almost stopped you going to PATAS.

But I would strongly recommend a pepipoo post first! You have 28 days from rejection to take it to PATAS so they (pepipoo experts) might suggest you get the PATAS form (if you do, request it IN WRITING or by email (not over the phone). You want a paper trail that proves you had to ask for the form. No phone calls to the Council.

now3d

Coupon-mad wrote: »

It means they failed, and you should win. On another thread on pepipoo someone never got a PATAS form so they rang up PATAS who said send your appeal with a copy of the Notice of Rejection and pointing out all your appeal points and the fact that the NoR had no enclosures whatsoever, which almost stopped you going to PATAS.

But I would strongly recommend a pepipoo post first! You have 28 days from rejection to take it to PATAS so they (pepipoo experts) might suggest you get the PATAS form (if you do, request it IN WRITING or by email (not over the phone). You want a paper trail that proves you had to ask for the form. No phone calls to the Council.

Thank you for the tips.

I am starting to form the opinion that this corrupt system run by Westminster Council is not something I can fix. Its engrained from their outsourced CEOs through the whole management structure and process. Its a loosing battle when their officers are all operating the same corrupt processes.

It has cost me 250 of my self-employed time to pursue this so far. Should I spend another 250 going through appeal etc? To simply be left with.. well nothing. Currently I am running a net loss of 130+250. After going through appeal I will be running at net loss of 500 (if I win), alternatively, a net loss of 630

What I think is needed is a step change at Westminster. A change of attitudes from the top, and a correction in their policies, procedures and implementation. If I win, my victory would not alone change that. It would have to be the Chief exec and all the councillors who would have to be advocating a correction of their policies, and I don't feel they are making any of these statements vocally, and publicly.

Winning a victory is useful, but throwing away a further 250 of my self employed income I can't afford.

Orrin

My informal appeal has been rejected on the grounds that the Civic Enforcement Officer has lied and stated that the vehicle was under constant observation with no unloading for 20 minutes.

On this occasion your vehicle was first observed on 13:52 as the CEO was aware the vehicle was parked for the purpose of loading time was given to complete the activity. The City Council permits a maximum of 20 minutes to load/unload. When the CEO returned at 14:13 the vehicle was parked in the same location and had been parked for longer than the allowed 20 minutes the CEO was correct to issue the PCN.

It sounds like either the council have changed their story or you were confused about why the PCN was issued in the first place.

I'd certainly think carefully before throwing any more money at it.