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Landlord wants to take ALL the deposit

benjus
Posts: 5,433 Forumite


I really can't believe how people can be such greedy *£$^&s
My partner and I moved out of our place 2 weeks ago and had our check-out inspection. I should note that when we moved in we had a check-in inspection that looked at the cleanliness of the flat but not much else - no itemised list of contents. This was duly signed. After pestering the LA a bit they sent us the "master inventory" from a year or so before we moved in which listed a number of items that she had removed at our request. The deposit is registered with TDS.
The LA inspected every 4 months, and only a few weeks ago the landlord described us as "exemplary tenants" when I emailed her directly to try to persuade her to extend the tenancy for another year rather than throwing us out so that her relative could live there.
The check-out went reasonably well - he highlighted a few issues:
So in my head I was thinking of about £35 to get about 3 sq m repainted (the two sides of the chimney breast), maybe £15 for the shower caddy, and probably a negligible amount for the carpet as it is so old.
Today I emailed the LA (with the landlord and TDS CC'ed) formally claiming the return in full of the deposit. The landlord immediately replied to say that she wanted to claim against the deposit but didn't say how much. The director of the LA replied several hours later, saying that the landlord intended to retain the full deposit, in respect of:
The director of the LA told me that she has advised the landlord that a full breakdown of proposed deductions will be required, and that she will let me know when that is available.
I got very angry and emailed straight back saying that even without full details this deduction would amount to a "gross case of betterment", that our deposit remains our money until a fully justified claim is made and is not a redecoration fund for the landlord, and that unless the landlord was willing to become MUCH more reasonable we would certainly dispute this ridiculous claim.
The landlord is clearly an intelligent person - she's a barrister so I guess she has a good understanding of the law. I'm not really sure what she is playing at with a claim that's so far from reasonable to be true.
Sorry for the long post... Question is: what's my next step? Should I pre-emptively raise a dispute with TDS now? Or wait for the itemised breakdown before taking further action? Or something else?
My partner and I moved out of our place 2 weeks ago and had our check-out inspection. I should note that when we moved in we had a check-in inspection that looked at the cleanliness of the flat but not much else - no itemised list of contents. This was duly signed. After pestering the LA a bit they sent us the "master inventory" from a year or so before we moved in which listed a number of items that she had removed at our request. The deposit is registered with TDS.
The LA inspected every 4 months, and only a few weeks ago the landlord described us as "exemplary tenants" when I emailed her directly to try to persuade her to extend the tenancy for another year rather than throwing us out so that her relative could live there.
The check-out went reasonably well - he highlighted a few issues:
- We had painted the chimney breast in the living room, so we repainted it the same colour as the rest of the room. The check-out clerk found a few areas on the sides of the chimney breast where the brush strokes of our repainting were visible against the faded surrounding colour.
- A slightly rusty old chrome shower caddy thing was missing. We threw this out because it was rusty and not listed on the master inventory. Worth about £15 on ebay.
- There was a 2m (roughly) line cut across the carpet in the bedroom. I honestly can't remember if that was there when we moved in or not, but the check-out clerk (who knows the property) thought it was new. The carpet is looks quite cheap, and has obviously been there for many years.
- There were some cut branches on the ground in the garden. OK, but nothing in comparison to the amount of rubbish that was in the garden when we moved in - I have a photo I emailed to the LA at the time to prove it.
So in my head I was thinking of about £35 to get about 3 sq m repainted (the two sides of the chimney breast), maybe £15 for the shower caddy, and probably a negligible amount for the carpet as it is so old.
Today I emailed the LA (with the landlord and TDS CC'ed) formally claiming the return in full of the deposit. The landlord immediately replied to say that she wanted to claim against the deposit but didn't say how much. The director of the LA replied several hours later, saying that the landlord intended to retain the full deposit, in respect of:
- Repainting
- New dishwasher, because the door is broken "rendering it unusable". The door is not broken, it sticks and needs to be teased open by sliding a hand down the side of the door. This started happening a few weeks ago - I told the LA over the phone, who of course did nothing about it.
- "Other issues"
The director of the LA told me that she has advised the landlord that a full breakdown of proposed deductions will be required, and that she will let me know when that is available.
I got very angry and emailed straight back saying that even without full details this deduction would amount to a "gross case of betterment", that our deposit remains our money until a fully justified claim is made and is not a redecoration fund for the landlord, and that unless the landlord was willing to become MUCH more reasonable we would certainly dispute this ridiculous claim.
The landlord is clearly an intelligent person - she's a barrister so I guess she has a good understanding of the law. I'm not really sure what she is playing at with a claim that's so far from reasonable to be true.
Sorry for the long post... Question is: what's my next step? Should I pre-emptively raise a dispute with TDS now? Or wait for the itemised breakdown before taking further action? Or something else?
Let's settle this like gentlemen: armed with heavy sticks
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you're Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you're Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning
0
Comments
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Sorry I can't be much help but I would of thought the dish washer (which is probally one of the bigger expenses) is thier problem...I mean if you had reported it had broke whilst you was living thier they would of had to fix it no?People don't know what they want until you show them.0
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Kayalana99 wrote: »Sorry I can't be much help but I would of thought the dish washer (which is probally one of the bigger expenses) is thier problem...I mean if you had reported it had broke whilst you was living thier they would of had to fix it no?
Well I did report it, as I said in the OP. The Agent did nothing about it, but hopefully they have a record that I reported it. Anyway, even if it had broken due to our negligence (which was not the case) claiming for a new one is just taking the mickey.Let's settle this like gentlemen: armed with heavy sticks
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you're Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning0 -
- Repainting
As for 'betterment', how old was the paintwork when you moved in and how long have you lived there?- New dishwasher, because the door is broken "rendering it unusable". The door is not broken, it sticks and needs to be teased open by sliding a hand down the side of the door. This started happening a few weeks ago - I told the LA over the phone, who of course did nothing about it.
Again - how old is the washing machine?- "Other issues"
I got very angry and emailed straight back
a) stop getting angry - keep cool
b) stop emailing. Write.
The landlord is clearly an intelligent person - she's a barrister so I guess she has a good understanding of the law. I'm not really sure what she is playing at with a claim that's so far from reasonable to be true.
A barrister who works in company,or criminal, law may be incredibly niaive about LL/tenant law!
Sorry for the long post... Question is: what's my next step? Should I pre-emptively raise a dispute with TDS now? Or wait for the itemised breakdown before taking further action? Or something else?
If you donot receive a reply, or the reply is unsatisfactory, raise a dispute.0 -
Getting angry is a very foolish thing to do, chill out. In future report all problems with a property in writing not simply by telephone. Wait for the deductions list then dispute logically.Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️0
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Thanks for the replies. I agree that getting angry is not a sensible thing to do... however, I don't think that the email I wrote to the letting agent is out of line.
The paintwork: Nothing stated in the check-in report regarding the condition of the paintwork. I don't know when it was last redecorated, but the paintwork in general looked pretty tired, with plenty of scuff marks. It's a Victorian property that doesn't appear to have been fully modernised for many years, not a pristine new flat. I'm happy to pay reasonable costs to repaint the sides of the chimney breast in the living room, but not the entire room, much less the entire flat.
The dishwasher: There was no obvious cause for the fault with the door - one day I went to open the door and found I couldn't open it by pulling the catch. I felt around a bit and found that if I put my hand in the side the lock could be released. The dishwasher is at least 3 years old (as it is mentioned in the "master inventory" from 2010), but probably older than that.Let's settle this like gentlemen: armed with heavy sticks
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you're Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning0 -
Ok, so it's now 3 weeks since we vacated, and 1 week since I requested the return of the deposit. Still no itemised list of proposed deductions from the landlord. I have seen the check-out report now, though. It claims to be made against the check-in report, but actually contains a lot of comparisons to some unknown document (possibly the previous tenant's check-out report). The LA appears to have realised that our check-in report is close to useless for proving the condition of anything. (the only issue mentioned in the check-out report regarding the paintwork is the sides of the chimney breast, and nothing is mentioned about the dishwasher).
Anyway, we sent the landlord a letter (delivered today), to the following effect:- We reject any parts of the check-out report that make comparisons with an unknown document which we have not signed, and only accept comparisons with our check-in report
- We offer £50 to cover repainting the sides of the chimney breast, but reject any further claims for redecoration because the paintwork in the flat was described in the 2010 inventory as having "general scuffs", and it was worse than that when we arrived in 2011, so the flat obviously has not been redecorated for some time. [The condition of the paintwork is not documented in our check-in report]
- We reject any claims regarding the dishwasher as it is still operable, the door catch issue was not caused through any action on our part, and the issue was reported to the LA who took no action.
- We will give the landlord until next Monday (i.e. 1 week) to respond to the letter, after which we will open a dispute with TDS.
Anyway, I wanted to ask a question regarding timescales. The TDS website indicates that we can open a dispute 10 working days after requesting repayment of the deposit, which coincides with the time limit specified in our letter.
However, there are some clauses in our tenancy agreement regarding timescales for deposit disputes - particularly (7.7) below - I just wanted to check if they will affect the proposed deadline we have given:(7.4) The Agent (Member) must tell the tenant within 10 working days of the end of tenancy if they propose to make any deductions from the deposit
(7.6) The tenant should try to inform the Agent (Member) in writing if the Tenant intends to dispute any of the deductions regarded by the Landlord or the Agent as due from the deposit within 20* working days after the termination or earlier ending of the Tenancy and the Tenant vacating the property. The Independent Case Examiner ("ICE") may regard failure to comply with the time limit as a breach of the rules of TDS and if the ICE is later asked to resolve any dispute may refuse to adjudicate in the matter.
(7.7) If after 20* working days following the notification of a dispute to the Agent (Member) and reasonable attempts having been made in that time to resolve any differences of opinion, there remains an unresolve dispute between the Landlord and the Tenant over the allocation of the Deposit the dispute will (subject to 7.8 below) be submitted to the ICE for adjudication. All parties agree to co-operate with the adjudication.
(7.8) If the amount in dispute is over £5,000 [... rest of clause not reproduced here as not relevant to this case]
* These time scales can be changed by agreement with the tenant in individual cases or by the contract used as standard by the agentLet's settle this like gentlemen: armed with heavy sticks
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you're Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning0 -
http://www.peachenergy.co.uk/Damage%20%20&%20Deposits.pdf
I think a lot of the things they are claiming would probably be betterment. And I think they are in trouble if you didn't sign the inventory they are using.0 -
Thanks girleight - I agree that it looks like betterment, although without a comprehensive list of what the landlord wants to claim, it's hard to judge.
I'm interested in the question of the timescales though - does what's in the tenancy agreement override the TDS guidelines or restrict us in any way?Let's settle this like gentlemen: armed with heavy sticks
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you're Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning0 -
how can they require you to dispute any claims within 20 days of the tenancy ending, if YOU STILL don't even have a concrete claim documenting what they are trying to charge??
sounds like bull poop to me!
the timer should start, if there is one, from when you RECIEVE their claim, as you shouldn't be responsible for them getting their claim out in a timely fashion!0 -
I'm interested in the question of the timescales though - does what's in the tenancy agreement override the TDS guidelines or restrict us in any way?
OP - see this from TDS2.6 The Landlord (and any Agent acting on their behalf) and the Tenant must ensure that they meet the deadlines set out in these Rules.My bolding. Quite why TDS thinks it is appropriate to set specific timelines for their Members and then effectively muddy the waters by saying that LLs can offer different timelines within their own tenancy agreements is beyond me.
Deductions from the Deposit
3.7 The Member must tell the Tenant within 10 Working Days of the end of the tenancy, (or within the timescale specified in the tenancy agreement) if they propose to make any deductions from the Deposit
3.8 If the Tenant does not agree to the proposed deductions from the Deposit, the Tenant should make reasonable endeavours to tell the Member. However, Members should appreciate that silence on the tenant’s part does not in itself amount to agreement. The Tenant’s objections should be raised with the Member:a. within 20 Working Days after the end of the tenancy (however the tenancy ends); or if different3.9 TDS may, subject to Rule 7.2, regard a party’s failure to co-operate with timescales in these Rules as an attempt to push the Dispute past the deadlines for ADR and TDS may refuse to accept the case if subsequently asked to resolve it.
b. within the period specified in the tenancy agreement (which must be not less than 14days); or, if later than (a) and (b)
c. within 10 Working Days of the Member Notifying the Tenant of the proposed deductions from the Deposit
I was recently made aware of a particular LA ( a member of ARLA et al) who uses this "cop-out" to hang on to tenancy deposits for a number of weeks, their argument being that they have so many properties on their books they cannot organise check out inspections straight away at the end of a tenancy.0
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