First Time Buyers - Enough is Enough!

meanmachine_2

dougk wrote:

Without BTL investors the Rental market would be monopolised by a few big investor companies. !

Rubbish.

The number of BTL mortgages has gone from 27,000 in 1997 to over 500,000 by 2004.

Without all of these BTLers hoovering up properties, we'd have a sustainable property market and far fewer FTBers stilling living at home, or sleeping on friends' floors. Up until 1997 we managed very well without BTL leeches and, in a few years time, when it's all gone t*ts up, we'll manage just as well without them.

deemy2004

meanmachine wrote:

Why tax BTL properties?

Because having more than one home, at a time when property prices are already unsustainable, is counter to the national interest. Because having more than one home prices out essential workers such as nurses and teachers.

BTL is a greed-driven market, and is equivalent to the south sea bubble. Once it pops, the whole economy will collapse. And then we'll have years of BTLers bleating on about how they were "missold" mortgages blah blah blah.

I agree with a lot of the above.

meanmachine wrote:

BTLers are the new scum of society if you ask me. But what goes around, comes around. Should they be involved in a car crash and need theservices of an essential worker, but find there are none around because their greed has priced everyone out of the area, that is when the consequences of their greed will be felt the most.

I can't agree with the above...
BTL is a business, if you take risks then yeh, you get the potential rewards. As your first paragraphs point out the risks are obvious, that they 'could' lose.. But I can't see calling them scum is going to help the debate were having on house prices and what drives them.

As to continue the debtate.... As the property bubbles continues to unravel, 'some' BTLers will be bleating about compensation this, that and the other... Just remember they chose to take that extra property on and they have no right to expect the Tax payer to bail them or any other person who is in mortgage repayment difficulties out !

Unfortunately this labour government seems to be ultra soft on compensation cultures and I can imagine... them doing something stupid to help those in mortgage difficulties once it hits crisis point ...........

meanmachine_2

I accept that branding an entire group of people scum - some of whom are basically decent - is unhelpful and simply detracts from my argument. And I apologise for that comment.

But for BTLers to then claim they're in some way being charitable, or offering a valuable service, by "giving people a roof over their heads", while at the same time, keeping those self same people off the property ladder, is laughable.

There now, I'm even starting to bore myself.

Toodle pip!

dougk_2

Back in 1985 the whole economy was totally different. The number of people who owned thier own homes was less. Food was more expensive compared to income. Interest rates were higher. The whole world was a different place.

Thats WHY you should pay more because the world has changed. If you don't like it become a politican and try and change it.

The problem with Keyworkers is the pitifal amount they are paid. Nurses shouldn't be on 20k for thge job they do - but thats a different matter.

To pay them more means more tax. Get rid of BTL /rented properties and there is less income to be taxed. House price crash and there is even less goining into the government coffers (from stamp duty, insuarnce tax etc etc).

Compared to 1985 we have more disposable income now so we can afford more.
Income tax rates (in % terms) are lower now than in 1985.

I had already worked out from the figures you provided that you could AFFORD to buy a house / pay the mortgage on a property - you choose not too. Your choice.

It has been like it for centuries - the financially afluent and oppourtunitist own - the other rent. How many home owners in the 70s and 80s were average wage earners ?

Correct I am not an FTB. I own my own house and my partner owned her own house we have sold one in order to buy another. My house is Let out - why you may ask.
1) have you tried selling two houses at once?
2) I want security in case the relationship does not work out
3) We both have contracts which mean we may need to relocate in the future back where I orginated from.
4) I have worked hard and forgiven all the luxuries of a "cosmetic lifestyle". I don't ever borrow and get in debt (other than the mortgages which I am confortable at about 4 times my salary).
5) Investing in a property is no different to investing in anything else. If you have shares you are costing the consumer if you are being paid dividends.

robby-01

meanmachine wrote:

You really do have to stop repeating this rubbish.

Why should I have to pay MORE TAX than my parents .]
How do you pay more tax than your parents?

meanmachine_2

Doug, I accept all that and appreciate your feedback.

But you have to confess that FTBers are being forced to take on huge mortgages in unique circumstances. If/when IR rates return to their historical average, they're the ones who will suffer the most. BTLers can simply divest themselves of their "assets" and keep a roof over their heads. FTBers won't be able to.

I have plenty of friends who have ridiculous mortgages about whom I have grave concerns for, especially with the economy looking rather volatile right now.

meanmachine_2

robby-01 wrote:

meanmachine wrote:

You really do have to stop repeating this rubbish.

Why should I have to pay MORE TAX than my parents .]
How do you pay more tax than your parents?

The tax burden is 40% of income, soon to rise to 42%. Of course I pay more tax than my now retired parents did at the same stage of their lives.

They had little trouble getting on the property ladder in their early 20s. The average age of the FTBer is now 34!!!

dougk_2

Just occured to me too.

My mortgage was a BTL as the lender would not allow me to keep it as standard one.

I am not a BTL Investor really - I bought my house to live in circumstances changed and i wanted to let it it out rather than leave it empty... So now I add to those stats.

I think also the BTL mortgage stats are misleading. BTL mortgages really didn't exsist a few years back. A mortgage was a mortgage. Many people let the houses they owned with a standard mortgage. People have become more aware and are following the "correct" line now. There was then no way of showing how many BTLetters there were.

As i said earlier many of the bigger landlords have gone and their are faar more smaller private ones now. More people live on their own not as families , further fueling demand for housing and increasing prices.

Do I feel bad about letting my house out - no - partly because I have given the oppourtunity to a young couple to live together, where as otherwise they could not afford to do so (even if house prices were 40% lower).

nelly_2

doug and his type think we should sacrifice any sort of fun and luxury in our lives just to buy a house. Well I aint buying into that literally.

And everybody I know says the same whats the point? even house owners think prices are ridiculous.

Im buying sod all for a couple of years and even then it'l have to be a decent price.

The property ladder is turning into a property snake

dougk_2

Thats the point - its my view it is unlikely that IR will ever return to the historical average. The world is so much different you cannot turn back time and things change.

I beg to differ but traditionally people stayed at home till they were older than they do now. Maybe the age of an FTB has increased, but then if they move from home younger to rented accom they cannot save so easily either hence taking longer for them to afford to buy.

Also traditionally people bought a house when they got married ....but thats a different story!