storage heaters/electric central heating or gas?

kezz2k2

Hiya,

I am purchasing a house in a village without gas and have been reading this thread with much interest. As there seem to be quite a few knowledgeable people contributing to this thread I thought it would be a good place to ask for some help.

The house I am buying is a 3 bedroom terraced house built in the mid to late 80s. It is fully double glazed. The bottom floor consists of the garage, a utility room and the stairs to the first floor. The garage is self-contained with an inner door in the hallway. The first floor is an open plan kitchen/lounge of approx 5.2 x 7.2m. The 3rd floor has 3 bedrooms and a bathroom with a hatch to the very small loft. The 2 staircases (1 near front door, 1 in lounge) are open plan and this is where I could do with some advice.
The house is fitted with electric room heaters (convection).

Does anybody know how the open plan layout will affect heater size? How do I work out what heater sizes should be sufficient to heat the house.

My partner and I mostly work days and are only home in the evening and at weekends. This would mean that the current convector heaters would be on for an hour in the morning and 5 hours at night. Even doing the maths at 6 hours per day this runs up quite a bill for the heaters alone. I understand that the thermostats would ensure that they don't run constantly but whats the best way to estimate the amount of heating required? I guess this will be a function of the amount of heat lost through walls/roof/windows.

After reading this thread I understand that all electric heaters (except ASHPs) provide the same output for the same input therefore the current heaters wouldn't need replacing (if correctly specced) if I stayed with "on-demand" heating however I am thinking of installing fan assisted storage heaters which I believe would charge up overnight on the cheaper tariff and then could be programmed to come on in the evening to release the stored heat when we're at home. They are pretty expensive tho so I want to make sure I understand the maths before committing to any outlay. I was thinking of installing 1 heater in the bottom hallway and another in the lounge. Bedrooms could then remain with the existing convectors to top up as required.

What size heaters and how many do I need? Is there any guidance available that would allow me to work this out?

Thanks in advance

kezz2k2

Cardew

kezz2k2 wrote: »

Hiya,

I am purchasing a house in a village without gas and have been reading this thread with much interest. As there seem to be quite a few knowledgeable people contributing to this thread I thought it would be a good place to ask for some help.

The house I am buying is a 3 bedroom terraced house built in the mid to late 80s. It is fully double glazed. The bottom floor consists of the garage, a utility room and the stairs to the first floor. The garage is self-contained with an inner door in the hallway. The first floor is an open plan kitchen/lounge of approx 5.2 x 7.2m. The 3rd floor has 3 bedrooms and a bathroom with a hatch to the very small loft. The 2 staircases (1 near front door, 1 in lounge) are open plan and this is where I could do with some advice.
The house is fitted with electric room heaters (convection).

Does anybody know how the open plan layout will affect heater size? How do I work out what heater sizes should be sufficient to heat the house.

My partner and I mostly work days and are only home in the evening and at weekends. This would mean that the current convector heaters would be on for an hour in the morning and 5 hours at night. Even doing the maths at 6 hours per day this runs up quite a bill for the heaters alone. I understand that the thermostats would ensure that they don't run constantly but whats the best way to estimate the amount of heating required? I guess this will be a function of the amount of heat lost through walls/roof/windows.

After reading this thread I understand that all electric heaters (except ASHPs) provide the same output for the same input therefore the current heaters wouldn't need replacing (if correctly specced) if I stayed with "on-demand" heating however I am thinking of installing fan assisted storage heaters which I believe would charge up overnight on the cheaper tariff and then could be programmed to come on in the evening to release the stored heat when we're at home. They are pretty expensive tho so I want to make sure I understand the maths before committing to any outlay. I was thinking of installing 1 heater in the bottom hallway and another in the lounge. Bedrooms could then remain with the existing convectors to top up as required.

What size heaters and how many do I need? Is there any guidance available that would allow me to work this out?

Thanks in advance

kezz2k2

The heaters you refer to are called storage heaters.

You are correct that they store heat produced from cheap rate electricity at night on a tariff called Economy 7.(E7) There are other variations but that is the most common - 7 hours of cheap electricity somewhere in the 9 hours from 11:30pm to 8:30am.

However you need to be aware that if you get E7 or any of the variations you pay a premium on your daytime electricity(the other 17 hours).

As you intend to use other heaters, it may well be that your savings on cheap rate are are cancelled out by the extra you pay during the other 17 hours.

Also the storage heaters do tend to 'leak' heat during the day, even if the output turned to minimum, and run out in the evening. Obviously for a working couple this is not ideal as you can't take advantage of the heat produced during the day.

There are mixed opinions on storage heaters, and it is fair to say that many people hate them. Not least because you have to forecast the next day's heating requirement

Others find they make financial sense as you can heat water up overnight using the immersion heater and put appliances on timers to make maximum use of cheap rate.

Incidentally if you go down the storage route, it is imperative that you look at proper Storage Heaters(basically they are a pile of bricks with heating elements) and not some of these hugely expensive electrically heated radiators that purport to 'store' electricity because they are filled with a magic gel/clay etc.

Nobody here can forecast the heating load for your house as it depends on size and insulation properties. However that is not so important with electrical heating as if your heater output is more than required, you can simply turn down the output by setting the thermostat lower.

Katie-Kat-Kins

Hi, I have a fan assisted storage heater in my lounge, and I wouldn't bother paying the extra for a fan assisted one. I am in fact looking to replace it at the moment (due to problems not related to the fan) and will replace it with a standard storage heater.

I find the fan noisey, and unless the heater is on quite high and you are sat in front of it, it tends to make the room feel drafty. I normally switch the fan off and use it as a standard heater.

I think you are also burdening yourself with more parts to go wrong and a higher electricity consumption.

Finally whilst what cardew says is correct, check the rates in your area for economy 7 versus standard flat rate electric, you normally find the difference betwee the day rate and the flat rate is pretty small, but you get the benefit of the night rate being about half price. If you go down this route it might be worth getting more than one storage heater so that you can reduce your reliance upon the convectors.

I work full time during the day and don't have a problem with my heaters running out of heat in the evening but I have Economy 10, this could also be an option worth checking although it isn't available in all areas.

Cardew

Katie-Kat-Kins wrote: »

Finally whilst what cardew says is correct, check the rates in your area for economy 7 versus standard flat rate electric, you normally find the difference betwee the day rate and the flat rate is pretty small, but you get the benefit of the night rate being about half price. If you go down this route it might be worth getting more than one storage heater so that you can reduce your reliance upon the convectors.

I work full time during the day and don't have a problem with my heaters running out of heat in the evening but I have Economy 10, this could also be an option worth checking although it isn't available in all areas.

Agreed, the difference between the E7 day rate(for 17 hours) and 24/7 rate needs checking as it varies tremendously between geographic areas and companies.

Economy 10* and storage heating is a whole new ball-game compared with Economy 7. The afternoon boost ensures that any leaked heat is replenished.

However as you say it is not available in many areas and some companies do not offer an E10 tariff. I have heard that even the companies that do offer E10, they will not install it in existing houses - it costs too much to modify all the metering/wiring.

* For Kezz 2k - E10 is 10 hours cheap rate, with (usually) 3 hours in afternoon.

andyrpsmith

Just for information I moved off Southern Electric E10 to a fixed standard rate with OVO at a unit price less than the off peak E10 rate. By not using storage heating and managing the heating in individual rooms I am saving £1000 per year. (My usage is high at about 22500 KWH per year due to the house being 350 years old, solid walls and only now secondary glazing).

grahamc2003

From the little I've seen about the charging structure of e10, I'd say there's no comparison with e7. i'd say all e10 rates are very expensive, even the so called off-peak units. Could you tell us the price/unit you used to pay for e10?

People are generally negative about storage heaters. While they certainly have their drawbacks (lack of flexibility, a certan knowledge necessary to get the best out of them), they also have advantages - the main one being a complete lack of maintenance. (and all the hassle associated with maintenance and the seemingly frequent problems with modern gas boilers, not to mention the replacement costs).

If no gas is available, I'd say it's pretty much hobson's choice, except for those who are (still) into oil. Contrary to what many say, e7, used correctly with modern storage heaters, isn't a great deal more expensive than gas, imo, even before maintenance etc is taken into account. On the coldest days as recently, it's hoping too much for a correctly sized system (which I think should maintain 20C at 0 ambient iirc) to keep the heat late into the night. So best to have some additional heating available. I'd be very wary of advice to move off e7 to full rate tariffs if the heating is electric. The only way that could possibly work out cheaper is if many rooms in the house are simply left cold for much of the time (assuming you're on a decent e7 tariff, with day rates only slightly higher than non-e7 rates, and night rates at most 50% of day rates)

I've had e7/storage heaters for 23 years - the last twenty with modern ones, which I find OK.

Storage heaters which don't keep the room warm till late at night are either old (i.e. not incorprating even elementary controls), mis sized, or the insulation isn't up to scratch, or it's been below 0 outside for much of the day, or the room has been overheated earlier in the day.

So, not perfect at all. But then again, what heating system is?

Alot_does_not_exist

Ah, I've just found this thread after posting the same question in 'In My Home'. I'll just cut and copy it below:


I have a small, 2 bedroom property which I let out and which has no heating system. I have to install something before next winter, as agreed with the current tenants.

I have heard other landlords complaining about the cost of upkeep of gas CH systems and that of the annual safety check, not to mention the soaring cost of gas to the tenants.

Would an Economy7 tariff, modern storage heater system be an alternative?

Or maybe oil-filled, electric radiators?

Is there anyone with experience who could advise?

HappyMJ

Alot_does_not_exist wrote: »

Ah, I've just found this thread after posting the same question in 'In My Home'. I'll just cut and copy it below:


I have a small, 2 bedroom property which I let out and which has no heating system. I have to install something before next winter, as agreed with the current tenants.

I have heard other landlords complaining about the cost of upkeep of gas CH systems and that of the annual safety check, not to mention the soaring cost of gas to the tenants.

Would an Economy7 tariff, modern storage heater system be an alternative?

Or maybe oil-filled, electric radiators?

Is there anyone with experience who could advise?

I'd only install GCH between tenancies due to the mess and upheavel of the installation. Personally I'd just offer electric heating permanently attached to the walls for now. Then look at it again on a later date. As it's only a 2 bed place the savings by switching to GCH won't be as large as a normal family home. Just a guess but an investment of several thousand in GCH might only generate a few hundred per year in savings per year and who gets the benefit of the savings? The tenant or the landlord? You could increase rent but not by much.

E7 heating I don't really think is worth installing. You need to really be at home all day for it to be effective. If your tenants are working during the day then it's pointless.

Danny_t65

Hi All,

I have been following this thread for a while and would be grateful for some advise from you experts! I have just purchased a 1 bedroom flat, it was built in the 1970's and has Electric Ceiling heating, apparently this was a new craze in the 70's which never took off. The living room and bedroom both have thermostat control so i can control the temperature of the room. In my previous property i had GCH and i just sussed it out before i moved out! My Girlfriend and myself work full time and get in at 6pm ish, with our GCH i used to leave the heating on all the time during the winter month and just turn the thermostat down when we weren't there for long periods, i found this kept the house warm and stopped the boiler working so hard to get to an ambient temperature from cold! I noticed my bills were cheaper than that of the previous year when i didn;t leave it on all the time.

In my new flat with the electric ceiling heating, i take it that it would be cheaper to just turn on the heating when i arrive home as it wouldn't take long to heat up? (i think?) I have got a horrible feeling the electric ceiling heating will cost me a fortune! Has anyone got any advise for how i can keep my electric costs down ie. install storage heaters etc.

Many Thanks in advance

Danny

Cardew

ChrisBridgett wrote: »

Storage heaters aren't efficient at all and by the sounds of things they aren't even doing the job either, so forgot them imo! Check out (spam .UK-) they're electric so having no gas etc isn't a problem and they're cheaper to run than the very best other electric heaters. Might cost a few hundred quid to install in the first place, but they'll have paid for themselves within the year.

More spam

Wouldn't mind but it is totally inaccurate cr**P!

Say after me:

"If they are 'cheaper to run than the very best other electric heaters' then they give out less heat."

I have an electrically heated place mat for keeping coffee warm. It is 100% efficient and only draws 5 watts - so is very cheap to run; approx 2 hours for a penny.

I used not one, but two, to heat the sitting room last winter and my wife still complained - no pleasing some people!