Ill health pension and IB/ESA

markmarkmark

rogerblack wrote: »

Do you happen to have had the explanatory booklets copied also - or have retained them?

Unfortunately not.

This maybe a lesson in keeping all correspondence. I almost shredded all my IB stuff seeing as it was now obsolete - good thing I kept the important photocopies.

I am virtually certain that Invalidity Benefit was not means tested pre 1995 (at least if you had 20 years worth of NI contributions as I had) and the introduction of Incapacity Benefit in 1995 kept this the same (at minimum for automatic transition cases), but cannot find any links for rules this old.

Then IB was means tested in 2001, but did not apply to people on IB before then. Now ESA has the same transitional rule for people automatically transferred from IB who were on IB before 2001, so this is the basis for the second appeal. I have also been on high care DLA which is a second criteria for the pension disregard, so this applies on 2 separate rules which the Jobcentre did not recognise.

markmarkmark

HOWMUCH wrote: »

Hello Mark
My friend was concerned as he was previously on Invalidity Benefit then move onto Incapacity Benefit in April 1995 and so never paid any tax but now on ESA and may have to pay tax.

I cannot find the document now ( been looking through pages and pages of searches the past couple of weeks) but I am pretty certain Contribution ESA is taxable no matter what. I read a page which was either tax office or a minister reply where they said CB ESA would be taxed regardless - there would be people who were not taxed on IB who lose out but these would be a small minority !!! (I would be taxed too) but it is necessary for administrative convenience. Income ESA is not taxed but has the means test instead.

This goes directly against DuncanSmith public assurances that no one would lose out in the transition from IB to ESA as far as I can see.

sleepless_saver

markmarkmark wrote: »

I cannot find the document now ( been looking through pages and pages of searches the past couple of weeks) but I am pretty certain Contribution ESA is taxable no matter what.

CB ESA is certainly on HMRC's list of taxable benefits.

chocolady

leaflets that came with the incapacity renewal forms tell you that, as you say, if its a continuous claim, which it looks like yours is then you dont have to take the pension into account or mention it before 2001. Where IDS has lied when he says that no one will lose out is that ESA is means tested so not sure about all this transitional relief as if thats so then your pension will count. From what I can see they even count your Incapacity even if you wont be getting it under ESA because of the means test. Not sure about contribution based but I suspect that will have some catch too as the whole point is to stop people getting same level of benefit they had in the past and to save money regardless of the situation you are in.

markmarkmark

chocolady wrote: »

leaflets that came with the incapacity renewal forms tell you that, as you say, if its a continuous claim, which it looks like yours is then you dont have to take the pension into account or mention it before 2001.

Thank you for that. After many days of surfing I found the relevant bit in the decision makers handbook chapter 45 - dmgch45.pdf section 45465 (cannot post links yet).

As far as I can see this applies to me and shows the pension should be disregarded on counts 2.1 and 2.3, thus the job centre staff applied a sanction without regard to or even checking the relevant rules (apart from accusing me of never disclosing my pension on my various application forms over the years, when there was no such question on any of my photocopies, and telling me that each form had "definitely" asked about other income...).

My GL24 has gone in and we shall see what happens now. Presumably if the reconsideration does not bring a result I shall have to write to my MP?

rogerblack

markmarkmark wrote: »

My GL24 has gone in and we shall see what happens now. Presumably if the reconsideration does not bring a result I shall have to write to my MP?

You could do - however the proper procedure is that the decisionmaker will then submit a copy of the appeal papers (did you mention the appropriate bit of the DMG - if not send in subsequent letter) to the tribunal, and they will then some months later list you for a hearing.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Pensions prior to conversion

Certain pension payments or PPF periodic payments, do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont). In addition any pension payment or PPF periodic payment is disregarded where:

1. . the claimant was entitled to IB immediately before conversion to ESA and
2. . IB was not reduced by a pension or PPF payment because
2.1 the claimant was entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate or
2.2 the claimant qualified for IB under the provisions for those incapacitated in youth because of previous entitlement to SDA or
2.3 the claimant was entitled to IB before 6.4.01 on any day of IfW in a PIW which began before and continues after that date

Vol 8 Amendment 7 February 2011

markmarkmark

rogerblack wrote: »

You could do - however the proper procedure is that the decisionmaker will then submit a copy of the appeal papers (did you mention the appropriate bit of the DMG - if not send in subsequent letter) to the tribunal, and they will then some months later list you for a hearing.

Thank you. I should explain that my original IB to ESA transfer letter said I was in the WRAG, hence the later job centre interview. I appealed describing why my original submissions met the criteria for the support group. Then I had the job centre interview which led to ESA stopped because of pension. Then I had a confirmation letter saying ESA was stopped from the interview date, but the few weeks I had been paid from IB ending I was now in the support group, with the amounts and IB top up amended accordingly in the "we will pay you" section.

So I can only assume (since I have it in black and white in the second letter) that the appeal was successful at the reconsideration stage, but in the meantime the ESA was stopped because of the (incorrect from my point of view as per the second appeal) pension factor.

However I never got a letter describing the appeal outcome or reconsideration outcome being successful, I assume because the ESA was stopped just after I was reconsidered into the support group? But my second letter definitely describes me in the support instead of the WRAG for the few weeks before ESA was stopped.

Since the second, pension appeal, looks an open and shut case as far as the decision makers rules are concerned (kindly linked by Richie, thank you, and yes I managed to quote in the GL24) I would assume it would succeed at a decision makers reconsideration because a tribunal would regard it as a waste of their time and money to go that far? but maybe I am being too logical or sensible?

The whole thing just seems so random and frankly unprofessional. I hate to think what happens to poor souls who don't have the time or ability to spend days searching the web or help from websites or advice centres and just accept whatever is told them...

Richie-from-the-Boro

markmarkmark, you have done well, even the 'pro' legal boards are struggling with this / these [protected award / transitional protection] conversions. There is a 'lead' case in the pipeline unfortunately it was due to be heard just last Fri but was adjourned, even if it had been heard it may have been a month or so before the ruling was known.

There is a much more fundamental issue that of 'conversion date'. It is the case that all benefits for many years have an AIP set on them, this assessed income period can be set to vary from months to, in for example cases like yours it would usually be set at the maximum of 5 years, so I assume your last AIP was set in about 2008.

- if and when any ruling comes out on this 'test case' I will re-find this thread and post the outcome for you.,

markmarkmark

Thank you. I've never heard of assessed income period. All I've ever had is yearly updates of the Incapacity Benefit showing the normal RPI type increase from 1995 to 2013. Perhaps in my case the transitional arrangements from Invalidity Benefit to Incapacity Benefit in 1994 have some bearing on the eventual IB rules? I'll report back when any decisions come through.