Boss questioning illness - constructive dismissal?

Varren12

getmore4less wrote: »

So the boss does not believe you are sick.

I don't think that would be seen as a fundemental breach of contract that would get far at an ET(even if you had worked there for years)

Resigning over this would go nowhere at an ET unless you have followed the full grievence procedures.

Follow the proccedures for notification of being sick, let the GM follow procedures if they want to take it further.


You need to get to the bottom of why you keep being sick.

I note in your first post you have only been there 6 months but have been telling them how to do their jobs(Ideas to save money) , remember they employ students to do the grunt work(cheap) not be offsick and smart a***s unless you are planning a career in the trade.

By going home does this mean you were not available during the holidays?

Easter weekend was the busiest time for bars since NY, our local JDW was rammed from Thurs afternoon to Sunday.

I've followed all procedures for being ill. Ringing in, speaking to management, leaving text/e-mail as well to follow it up (although not technically required.). I would follow the grievance procedure if this continued.

I've held management positions elsewhere, I've had experience in the industry in other cities which gives me a lot of useful experiance. We are regularly asked for our input, or if we've got any ideas to improve the business. Its not a matter of "being a smart !!!!.". If we weren't asked, then I'd keep my mouth shut, as i'd rather keep my head down and work. We're all employed on the basis of our experience, and interviews, and references. All of mine were pretty good.

I worked the easter weekend Thursday-Sunday, 9pm-7am shifts each night, worked my backside off, and got praise from middle management for it. God knows the last freshers, Halloween, Xmas Eve, Boxing Day, or NYE i've had off since I started this kind of work, cos I'm pretty certain I never have. I work hard, and wouldn't take a day off out of choice.

Its an hour on the train home for me, so I can be at work if and when needed with a bit of a notice. I went home for a week to pick up letters, and catch up with people, as I wasn't rota'd to be in for a full week.

I don't decide to go home during the holidays and pull a "I can't work during the hols, sorry!" like other students have done in the past. If anyone tries that in todays environment, they'll be lucky to hold a job down quite honestly. I'm not some workshy little student who doesn't want to work, nor is looking for excuses. Fact is, being in a state where you're throwing up is NOT something you want in a work environment, least of all one that involves drink, or worse, food. If it was just a headache, or a cold/flu, I'd go in regardless, and have done before.

I'm not in a financial situation where I can afford time off, out of choice. If I don't, I can't pay my rent, food, or phone bill.

chewynut wrote: »

To be honest, your GM has a point. Take a step back and try to read your post like it's about somebody else. It does look like there's a pattern.

You're playing a dangerous game by insisting you're too ill to work when you've only been there for six months. I know it sucks having to work when you feel crappy but at least then your GM can see that you're ill rather than having to take your word for it over the phone.

He does, but theres a right and wrong way to go about it.

I'd prefer to go and show what state i'm in, but i'm barely in a fit state to move around quite frankly.

Even someone who had a fractured collar bone and whiplash got a bit of abuse for having to leave mid shift to go A+E as they were in that much pain. I've also seen someone clearly ill vomiting out back due to the lack of sleep they're getting between shifts when they're clearly over worked but they're too scared to say it. You get the idea here.

I've worked in management positions before, and quite frankly, its not a management style I'm a fan of, as it doesn't get results, and just !!!!es staff off by being unsupportive/jumping to conclusions.

Varren12

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

You are wrong. Sorry.

1 Since the change in the law last year, you now have to have two years' service with the employer before you can make a claim for unfair or constructive dismissal. During that two years the employer can dismiss you for any reason or no reason at all (provided the reason does not breach the anti-discrimination legislation), and your ONLY entitlement would be to be given your contractual notice.

2 In any event, even if you did have the right to make a CD claim, you must first exhaust the employer's grievance procedures. Of course once you start a grievance the likelihood is that your 'card' will be marked as a troublemaker, and it is highly likely that your employment will be ended on some pretext or another shortly afterwards. In which case, if you are still within the first two years of employment, see point 1 above.

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it.

LittleVoice wrote: »

Are the only occasions when you have had to phone in sick those where you have returned from a visit home? If so, what is it that is affecting you about either being at home or leaving home?

Yes, I can understand the concern obviously from the managers point of view that it is twice now this has occured. I'd regardless get stick if I'd been at my uni address from what other staff have said about their past experience.

I don't know why its been the last two times i've been home, probably just poor timing, and being in contact on my return with someone whose got some illness.

Thanks for the comments so far everyone.

hawk30

notanewuser wrote: »

Nope. Unless its harassment or dismissal due to a protected characteristic (race, sex, disability etc) then you have no protection until you've worked there for 2 years.

There are other reasons for which you don't require the requisite amount of continuous service, but non of them apply in this case.

Crazy_Jamie

Varren12 wrote: »

@Jamie: Thanks for the response. In terms of track record, I've got 4 years bar industry experience, and glowing references from other bars I've worked in. As i've done shifts where i've been in from 2 or 3 in the afternoon til 4am the next day, and come in early when requested, or even on days off, I don't think its a matter of proven track record. Or i'd hope not anyway. Unfortunately, it seems that the vast majority of staff will come in when ill, to the point where it does more harm than good because they're worried of the response they'll get from the management team.

What I mean is that you don't have a proven track record with this particular company. If you had worked there for five years and never taken a day off sick, no doubt the manager would be more inclined to believe you if you then took a day off work for being sick. No doubt your references are very good, but the only direct experience that this manager has is the time that you have worked with this company.

You mention other people coming into work when they are sick through fear of the response of management if they were to stay at home, but the fact is that plenty of people work when they are ill simply through a determination to work and nothing else. Personally I still work when I am sick unless I pretty much cannot physically stand, and even then managed to work one day when I came close to that level. There is a spectrum here of how much people will allow sickness to affect them, and different people have different thresholds and approaches in that regard. Again, it doesn't mean that your manager has approached this in the right way, but I do have some sympathy with his general viewpoint. There are people who haven't had days off sick in many, many years, not because they haven't been sick, but because they have a drive to work regardless. Obviously sometimes sickness will defeat even the best of us, but the point remains.

But on application to your current situation, my advice is still to get back to work and prove yourself. Given that you have highlighted some long term benefits to this job, and therefore a reason for staying, it seems to me like the best option. Notwithstanding the treatment from the manager, if I was in your position it would feel premature to walk away at this point. You have something to prove, so prove it.

FBaby

Unfortunately, the odds are against you. Twice you go home and twice you are too poorly to come back to work and you know you will be too poorly days before. It doesn't matter how committed you normally are normally, it does look incredibly suspicious. Your boss can't prove you are just very unlucky (or your parents cook dodgy food!), but he can form his own opinion. There is nothing you can do about that, and to be fair, it is not him, I think most bosses when dealing with a university student going home would also suspect that this was more about wanting to spend more time home then about illness serious enough to prevent from coming to work days later.

Varren12

Crazy_Jamie wrote: »

What I mean is that you don't have a proven track record with this particular company. If you had worked there for five years and never taken a day off sick, no doubt the manager would be more inclined to believe you if you then took a day off work for being sick. No doubt your references are very good, but the only direct experience that this manager has is the time that you have worked with this company.

You mention other people coming into work when they are sick through fear of the response of management if they were to stay at home, but the fact is that plenty of people work when they are ill simply through a determination to work and nothing else. Personally I still work when I am sick unless I pretty much cannot physically stand, and even then managed to work one day when I came close to that level. There is a spectrum here of how much people will allow sickness to affect them, and different people have different thresholds and approaches in that regard. Again, it doesn't mean that your manager has approached this in the right way, but I do have some sympathy with his general viewpoint. There are people who haven't had days off sick in many, many years, not because they haven't been sick, but because they have a drive to work regardless. Obviously sometimes sickness will defeat even the best of us, but the point remains.

But on application to your current situation, my advice is still to get back to work and prove yourself. Given that you have highlighted some long term benefits to this job, and therefore a reason for staying, it seems to me like the best option. Notwithstanding the treatment from the manager, if I was in your position it would feel premature to walk away at this point. You have something to prove, so prove it.

Right, got you. Well, when i've worked it out, its equivalent to 3% absence rate. Actually, its a combination of wanting to work, and fear of what will happen if they don't turn up - and not being able to pay the bills. When this essentially shaves a quarter off my paycheque, I would much rather be working.

I have gone in ill before now - minor cold, flu, nothing that would effect my ability to do my job. If its bodily fluid related, or not being able to stand, it is highly inadvisable to come in. As part of my job involves being able to remember complex drinks, carry heavy drinks crates etc. I'd struggle to do it and cause more work for someone else.

FBaby wrote: »

Unfortunately, the odds are against you. Twice you go home and twice you are too poorly to come back to work and you know you will be too poorly days before. It doesn't matter how committed you normally are normally, it does look incredibly suspicious. Your boss can't prove you are just very unlucky (or your parents cook dodgy food!), but he can form his own opinion. There is nothing you can do about that, and to be fair, it is not him, I think most bosses when dealing with a university student going home would also suspect that this was more about wanting to spend more time home then about illness serious enough to prevent from coming to work days later.

Actually, just to clarify, I returned the day before my shift, and it can be seen by any status update (thank you facebook) that i'm back at my uni address. I'm older than the average university student as I took the time out to work instead and build up money (No point now that the fees have gone up mind, but thats besides the point hah.) I do agree he can form his own opinion based off the facts that he sees, as would anyone. That said, its been dealt with in a manner that I find slightly unprofessional. I don't really give a damn about being sworn at, its par for the job, but not having any attempt at talking to me about the situation is somewhat irritating. With an absence rate equivalent to about 3% of total shifts so far, I don't class it as a significant problem, but thats my take on it from other work places.

Essentially, I don't mind me being asked to show i'm ill, or this being dealt with in a reasonable manner. What gets to me is how its been dealt with that makes me feel like a !!!!!! for being ill, ad letting people down.

As a minor update, i've both e-mailed, texted, and responded to the comments on the staff group asking that the GM speaks to me about this in private, that i'm willing to do any other shifts required to make up for it (as stated in any message i've left), and that I was willing to show I was genuinely ill. Offering to send a picture of said vomit might be the next step to prove it mind. :rotfl: But, no response at all. Whether to leave it at that, or to force a dialogue next shift is the next question I guess, mainly working out if its worth it or not.

Again, thanks for the input guys.

de_g.

Does this chain of bars serve food?

If so, then they may be breaching Food Standards Agency guidelines (and possibly the law) by not excluding people until 48 hours after symptoms (vomiting and diarrhoea) end naturally.

See http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/publication/fitnesstoworkguide09v3.pdf
or search for
"food standards agency fitness to work" on any well-known search engine.

Varren12

de_g. wrote: »

Does this chain of bars serve food?

If so, then they may be breaching Food Standards Agency guidelines (and possibly the law) by not excluding people until 48 hours after symptoms (vomiting and diarrhoea) end naturally.

Yes, it would apply to the venue as they serve food. I suspect their answer would be that I'm not in the food prep area, so it wouldn't apply, nor are the hours I'm in am I in contact with food. (Normally, anyway.). Unfortunately a lot of places decide to ignore that part of the law (as it does come under the law) or see it as guidelines.

AP007

Varren12 wrote: »

@AP007: Yes, but I'd rather not state which one for obvious reasons.

I didn't say name them but if they are a big chain they have a HR team who you should tell

Fire_Fox

Why are you getting sick so often, you've had two vomiting bugs, minor cold and influenza in six months? Sounds like your immune system is low, IMO review your diet. You need a balance of different foods to supply all the nutrients for immune health: oily fish, mineral and fibre rich foods (nuts, seeds, beans, lentils), fruit and veg etc. People get hung up by zinc and vitamin C and that is nowhere near enough. Since I cleaned up my act I've had one cold in six to eight years, one bout of food poisoning from being stupid with leftover curry. Prior to that I had a 'normal' amount of sickness episodes.