Which clock do you operate/work by?

Sharon87

I'd just mention to your boss the clocks are out and get them to change one, most likely the office clock. Then there shouldn't be an issue!

Nine_Lives

Naf wrote: »

Are you hourly paid or salaried?
How does the clock in/out machine calculate your shift? By the minute? By the 5mins, 10, 15?
How do you work out 20 minutes as the clock is either constantly 10 minutes fast, or 10 mins slow so it'll be 10mins one way at the start of the day, 10 mins hero other at the end so overall no difference. (This has been pointed out already.)
So long as you go by the same clock for both, it makes no difference.

We're 1/4hrly paid. If we clock out at for e.g. 16:40 then we get paid until 16:30. If we clock out at 16:45 or 16:46 for e.g. then we get paid until 16:45.

A full week of clocking out at 10 minutes over a pay segment is 50-60 minutes, depending on whether you're working weekends. An hours work for free off every worker is quite good business for an employer.

Evilm wrote: »

I'm assuming the 'boss' isn't the only member of management?

Correct. Although the boss isn't the 'boss'. The boss is THE boss, the owner of the company, the one who is not answerable to anyone (other than i suppose tribunals & the actual law).

Go speak to HR

While i understand your comment, as you don't work for the same firm .... this suggestion is laughable (i don't mean that with any offence to you). This is for the reason that our HR person will basically do what the boss tells them to do.
In the past, the boss has told HR to dock certain members pay, without notice. The moment we realise is when we open our payslips & notice an inaccuracy. When we see HR & tell them that we're supposed to have some sort of notice, we just get told to go see the boss as this is what the boss said for them to do. Basically HR just keeps the boss sweet so to make their own job easier.

or one of the other bosses above him

There is nobody above


On the topic of reporting it - i have done, a few times. They wont change it though (therefore reporting is useless). I've reported to various levels of management - my line manager, HR, THE boss.

I was recently spoken to by the boss as to being late. They commented that another member of staff hadn't turned up & said "they're late AS WELL then".

I asked as well as what.

As well as you they said.

Excuse me, i wasn't late.
They tell me i was & that i didn't start work on time - on the dot.

I told them they could check the clock machine report if they didn't believe me.
Ah yes but you weren't ready for your shift when you should've been.
Yes i was, i started work at :30. I know this as i looked at my watch (synced with the clock machine as it's my work watch) as i began my shift & i was actually a few seconds early & therefore ON TIME.

They maintained i was late.

I told them that i was ON TIME by the clock i get paid by. If this doesn't match the office clock, or whatever time they've decided to set their watch to then this isn't my problem, but i'm not arguing about this - i was ON TIME & then i walked off as i was starting to boil.

Really don't need uncalled for grief.

Naf

Have you asked them which clock they would like you to go by? It makes no difference which you go by, so long as its the same one, and the one they want you to use. If they won't give you a straight answer, make a formal written grievance.

If you're paid by the 15mins, is that each time you clock in/out, or as the overall total at the end of the period? I.e. clocking out at :35 each day, you lose 5mins a day = 25mins a week. But if its altered at the end of the period, you only lose 10mins for the same week.
The same advice still stands, though, if you're using the same clock for your in and out, your pay will be correct.

Nine_Lives

i can't see how that is possible.

The clock in/out machine is what stamps our card, so when these are all processed there is physical evidence that we are starting/finishing at the times stated.
If we were to totally go by the office clock for example, then instead of starting at :30, we'd be starting at :20 (so we'd still actually be on time, but we'd be working 10 mins for free). And when finishing, instead of finishing at :30 (assuming we may be lucky enough to finish on time), we'd be finishing at :20 (& therefore probably still in trouble as customers would still be coming through the doors as they'd have normal time pieces). They wouldn't like that at all.

Nothing is rounded up or down. If we start at :25, then it's 5 minutes work for free. If we start at :35 then we get paid from :45 and a) we get in trouble for being late and b) we work 10 minutes for free in that example.

If at the end of the week, you tot up all the time we've worked 'for free' and it totals 60 mins (or indeed any mins divisible by 15) then we don't get that at all.

I remember working it out one week how much 'extra' time i'd given (for free) at both ends of the day throughout the week & it was very close to, if not slightly over an hour. I wasn't given it.

Salz

Why don't you all just work an extra 5 minutes on top of the 10 mins every day for a week. This way they will have to pay you all for the 15 mins of time a day. They cant say that you only worked the 5 minutes without losing their argument over the clock. If they have to pay everyone the extra they might get the message?

Naf

Stop looking at it as one issue; there's two:
1. If you're getting paid correctly for the time you're there (you are)
2. If you are going to be in trouble for lateness depending which clock you go by (you have been given good advice)

1. Pay
Whichever clock you go by, your clock in/out will be the correct amount of time apart for a full day's pay. If you're concerned that going by the office clock means you clock in at :40 in the morning, then out at :20 in the afternoon (therefore paid from :30 to :15) then you need to either arrive slightly earlier to make your clock in before :30 and/or clock out after :30 in the afternoon (no problem given you claim to never finish on time anyway). To be honest, its not uncommon for employers to require staff to be ready to work at their start time. If you're only clocking in bang on, you're not at your desk ready to go.

2. Timekeeping
As advised before, you should ask the direct question about which clock they run their business by. If they run it by the office clock, then request the clock in/out machine is changed to match (or vice versa. Also, opening & closing the shop should also go by this same clock, thus avoiding your concern over clocking out while customers are still entering). If they do nothing, raise a formal grievance in writing and they must take note.

Overall, though, I think you're being overly picky about the whole thing. Unless you're expected to clock out on time, but then stay to finish off the day's work, you should be happy to be getting paid for each hour you work. One job I had was salaried just a fraction above NMW - I worked out that the extra hours I was expected to work (contracted for 35hours; 9-5 with 1hr lunch; arriving 30 mins before shift for 'staff briefing' as well as leaving 30mins+ late at the end of each shift) meant I was actually working for less than NMW. Nobody cared when I brought it up.

Phil_68

I still don't get it?

If you arrive and clock in at 9:00 (clock machine) and go into office at 8:50 (Office clock) you will always be early, You leave at 16:20 (office clock) and clock out at 16:30 (clock machine) then where is the issue?

If you are saying your boss is expecting you stay in the office till 16:30 (office clock) then stay till 16:35 and get an extra 15 mins for 5 mins work And before you say you will be losing it in the morning as you are starting work 10 mins earlier, clock in (9:00 clock machine), make a brew - ask the boss if he wants one before you start work, you have 10 mins to spare by the office clock.
Turn that frown upside down!
Phil.

Nine_Lives

Salz wrote: »

Why don't you all just work an extra 5 minutes on top of the 10 mins every day for a week.

Because some times this would require 'hanging around' - grabbing. At the end of the day you can only drag out shutting up shop for so long.
In the past i have personally been 'spotted' trying to eek out that extra 5 minutes to guarantee a pay segment & then the boss refuses to pay the full 15 minutes because there was no work required for the extra 5 & i should've clocked out.

Naf wrote: »

Stop looking at it as one issue; there's two:
1. If you're getting paid correctly for the time you're there (you are)

To a degree.

Yes we're being paid for the 1/4hr blocks we're working, however we'd be working 10 mins for free every day. Nobody expects to get paid for time they haven't worked, but equally who wants to work for free? You may, but i don't.

Naf wrote: »

To be honest, its not uncommon for employers to require staff to be ready to work at their start time.

I fully expect & agree with this. This is not my problem. I am always ready at my start time & not just clocking on on my start time.

Naf wrote: »

If you're only clocking in bang on, you're not at your desk ready to go.

I agree. I also find it funny that people generally seem to assume everyone works in an office.

Naf wrote: »

2. Timekeeping
As advised before, you should ask the direct question about which clock they run their business by. If they run it by the office clock, then request the clock in/out machine is changed to match (or vice versa. Also, opening & closing the shop should also go by this same clock, thus avoiding your concern over clocking out while customers are still entering). If they do nothing, raise a formal grievance in writing and they must take note.

I agree & i have asked about the clocks difference. Admitted i haven't asked which one they run by - but i have told them that i work by the one i get paid by & they didn't respond to that statement. The shop is open well before the official opening time & it shuts once the last customer has been served after the official ending time. Some times they're even serving once the tills have been locked up.

Naf wrote: »

Overall, though, I think you're being overly picky about the whole thing. Unless you're expected to clock out on time, but then stay to finish off the day's work, you should be happy to be getting paid for each hour you work.

I disagree i am being picky - especially when i am being told off for being late when i am certainly not. I am happy to be paid for the time i'm working. I am not happy to be working for free. If the option was to work for free then i wouldn't.

Phil_68 wrote: »

I still don't get it?

If you arrive and clock in at 9:00 (clock machine) and go into office at 8:50 (Office clock) you will always be early, You leave at 16:20 (office clock) and clock out at 16:30 (clock machine) then where is the issue?

The issue is when you start on time. It takes approx 2 minutes from clocking on to being ready to work due to the location of the clock machine & your working start point. So when you're due to clock on at 9:00 say (& for the record, this is not an office), and you clock on at 8:55 (example) meaning the office clock is 8:45, then regardless of which clock you go by, you're ON time.
So the issue is when the boss starts having a pop at you for being late when you're quite clearly NOT.

And then at the other side of the day - working for free (i've just mentioned the points/problems about dragging things out to secure that extra 15)



I've just twigged why you all think this is an office....
...i don't work in an office, although there are office workers who can see us from their location. This is why i mentioned the "office clock".

Phil_68

I really think you should set up your own business, there are so many mole hills that are screaming out to be mountains and I feel you have all the right qualities for the role

In all seriousness, I feel your plight, been there done that. But you are either early or late (at both ends) of your working day - one will dictate the other. Can I suggest you take down the office clock (I know it's not an office) and reset the time? When queried about your actions - refer to my earlier post in time travelling and tell your boss that your inter galactic passport has expired - rather like the battery in the office (not office) clock.

The other thing I don't understand is Chinese writing

Phil.

Fire_Fox

Nine_Lives wrote: »

Picture the scenario...

You clock in at the start of your shift & clock out at the end. This clocking in/out machine has a timer on it.

You then have a big clock in the office set to another time - which is 10 minutes BEHIND the clocking in/out machine.

You then have the boss' watch/time .... which is set to whatever boss wants it to be set to.

If you operated off the office clock, you would start your shift 10 minutes early (so work 10 minutes for no pay), and you would finish 10 minutes 'late' - again meaning you'd work 10 minutes for no pay, totalling 20 minutes every day.


Before anyone suggests that it may be a mistake, don't bother - it certainly isn't.

Is it unreasonable to start AND finish work by the time on the clock machine?
If your boss pointed to the office clock & said you're leaving early, you have 10 minutes left to serve, could you get away with leaving by the clock machine, or could they bounce you out on disciplinaries, even though they've crafted the clocks to do you out of pocket?

Arrive and be ready to start work at the REAL time (according to your smartphone or Big Ben or other reliable method) OR by the clocking in clock whichever is earlier. Being late is a cardinal sin, definitely disciplinary. If you are contracted for nine to five, I am sure your contract doesn't say by a specific clock so it must mean GMT/ BST depending on the time of year.

Can't you just shift the office clock by a minute or two a week until it is right? Or politely ask for it to be reset because it's confusing when you have lunch and you don't like to feel like you are messing anyone about? Seems to me much more mature way to handle it than pointedly leaving 'early' because you've done your full eight hours.

I don't see how you get twenty minutes - either start or end of the day - it's only ten a day unless you are counting lunch. That is fairly normal in many jobs, you make sure you at at your work station a couple of minutes early, you leave a couple of minutes late after you've finished the task you are doing. Plus there is time to change out of uniform or go to the clocking out point or lock the main door.