Please adivse on PCN

landdo

ladies and gents

I have spend a good deal of time trawling the forum and have a fair idea now of what is legal and whats not regarding a PCN, however i'd like some advice on which route to follow, let me start be explaining the scenario

The car park was free for 2 hours and a PCN has been issued on a vehicle for overstaying the 2 hour limit by 16 minutes, wether it matters or not, the car park was all but empty from arrival to departure, and im pretty sure the few shops at the small retail park were all closed before 2 hours from arrival time of arrival had passed, which to my mind means there could be no possible impact on the business's at said retail park with which to claim against.

The PCN was issued to the registered keeper who was not driving at the time, though was a passanger in the car, the main point here though is that the registered keeper is elderly and holds a valid disabled parking badge, this elderly gentleman use's walking sticks to get about and has serious breathing difficulties, meaning walking even a short distance is very ardious.

Now as far as signage goes, I'v been informed by others that there is some in the car park, though not one (4 people including driver) saw any, but neither did they go hunting for it (why should they), Its felt the signage was inadiquate and neither the driver or the registered keeper recognise any contract allegidly formed with the PPC

what would be the best course of action?

Ignore the PCN?
Pass the buck to the driver to ignore the PCN, who will be able to deal with the threat-o-grams more calmly?
use the PCC's own appeals system(I dont like this option and feel it implies they have a legal claim over you)?
use the PPC's appeals process and make it abundantly clear that you dont recognise thier claim, and that you are only in contact with them through the appeals process as you have no other means by which to contact them?

finally any combination of all of the above!

Many thanks

Stroma

You don't say if this is in England or Wales, you can you use an independent appeals there, can you confirm if it is?

If you want to get the parking company to write to the driver instead of RK of the vehicle, do a challenge to the company giving name and address only, inform them you deny liability to the charge in a simple email/letter. Once they are writing to you they can't go back to the keeper.

You can then either ignore or use popla if applicable. Can you name the company involved as they may not be in the bpa aos list? Thanks

nigelbb

The Notice To Keeper that has been received should invite the RK to either pay up or give the name & address of the driver. Do this then the RK won't be bothered any more.

When the nominated driver receives a PCN don't appeal but challenge them to prove that they have the right to levy a charge (demand to see contract with landowner). They are claiming a penalty etc. There are lots of grounds to challenge on. Insist that they either cancel the ticket or send a POPLA code so that you can take the case for an "independent" appeal. If it goes to POPLA there are other questions that can be asked that they will not answer thus will they lose by default.

Guys_Dad

Seems like an equality case here. Old people who are disabled or have mobility problems may need more time to complete tasks that younger folk can do in half the time.

An appeal to the PPC will fail. OK, we know that, but make a decent short one, saying that the RK is disabled and that the badge must have fallen off the dashboard.

Does the RK have a disabled, zero cost Road Fund Licence on the car? IF so, the appeal should indicate that and that their operative should have been trained to see that. You also will be confirming that the RK had to rest on the way back from where you were because of his/her condition, won't you?

Wait for some pearls of wisdom from coupon-mad when she logs on.

Coupon-mad

As long as you are in England/Wales and so is the retail park, use the PPC's 'appeal system' and then POPLA (if need be) to get this cancelled. Write as the driver so as to hook the replies completely away from the older registered keeper himself.

Also copy in the retail park management (easily found with a quick Google search of newspaper articles about the retail park).

Do not write it as an 'appeal' about signage. Write it headed up 'Official Complaint about Disability Law Breach by XXX (PPC)'

and say summat like:

'Re this piece of rubbish (if you like to call a spade a spade as I do!!). For your information, here's a copy of the passenger's Blue Badge (cover his name if you want to keep him anonymous). You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you can arbitarily apply the same maximum stay to disabled visitors as you do to able-bodied ones. This is in fact illegal and a breach of the Equality Act 2010.

Cease and desist this harassment of a disabled person and cancel your fake PCN immediately. I have copied in the retail park management to this letter as well because they are liable for the actions of their parking agent, and I reserve the right to sue both parties and the landowner for damages if this threat is not cancelled forthwith. I attach a BBC article from 2010 which refers to the old disability law (the DDA) but makes the point that a disabled person MUST be allowed longer to park and get about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8488737.stm

I look forward only to an apology, confirmation that the fake PCN has been cancelled and information from both parties as to what steps you are now planning to take to ensure that your agent does not break the law again with any other disabled visitors. Ignorance of the law is no excuse and nor is the fact that 'PPC' use a camera and can't see disability evidence from mere photos of a vehicle driving in and out. It is your legal duty in a customer-facing environment to take steps to ensure ongoing compliance with the Equality Act 2010.




Let us know what reply you get. And if this was Parking Eye then look here, they KNOW they should provide longer for disabled visitors:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77891

If it was them then enclose a link or copy of that leaflet and say 'you already know about this issue and you know you've broken the law so why are you not doing anything about it in all car parks where you carry out your money-making business?'

Coupon-mad

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Wait for some pearls of wisdom from coupon-mad when she logs on.

I am all over it like a rash, you just all beat me to it!

landdo

His badge was issued in wales and the car park is in wales, the PCN is from parking eye, I dare say using automatic number plate detection as there were photo's of the number plate on the PCN, the car was parked in a disabled parking spot and the badge was visable on the dash board at all times.

landdo

Thank you so much for your responces, it makes my blood boil just thinking about it, the "fine" is something like 80 pounds even if i thought they had due cause to issue it, the amount is excessive, all they have to live on is thier old age pension! i'v told them in no uncertain terms not to pay it, but their feeling very intimidated (parking eyes intention)

Coupon-mad

landdo wrote: »

His badge was issued in wales and the car park is in wales, the PCN is from parking eye, I dare say using automatic number plate detection as there were photo's of the number plate on the PCN, the car was parked in a disabled parking spot and the badge was visable on the dash board at all times.

Then you should appeal in your name to hook the thing away from them and get it cancelled, with all responses then coming to you. Tell them that you are dealing with it to get it cancelled as PE broke the law, and that no more letters will be sent to them. Take the original PCN away 'for your file' in case they try to pay it in their panic.

If you weren't the driver then you don't actually have to lie and say you were, but by you complaining NOW 'as if you were the driver' by implication, the responses will come to you. I would do that for any vulnerable person who had one of these that I knew, I would complain 'making it seem like' I was the driver and talk about 'the passenger' and 'the car' in the third person so as not to actually lie. All the PPCs need is a name and address and in your case they'll be cancelling this one sharpish!

Believe me the retail park will jump and cancel it when you include them in the complaint like 'caryl2506' did over a disability breach against her elderly mother in Glamorgan Vale Retail Park. She was so incensed she headed her complaint as a 'Letter before Action' (a final warning prior to a Court claim):

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4244645

In her case, it took the retail park management 48 hours to deal with it and to 'force' the PPC to cancel even though they had declined an initial soft appeal (shocking but typical of this industry's sharp practice and stinking attitude to disability law!).

In your case you MUST include a copy of PE's own leaflet (it's written by PE not Aldi) which shows they know disabled people are allowed longer.

landdo

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Then you should appeal in your name to hook the thing away from them and get it cancelled. If you weren't the driver then you don't actually have to lie and say you were, but by you complaining NOW 'as if you were the driver' by implication, the responses will come to you. I would do that for any vulnerable person who had one of these that I knew, I would complain 'making it seem like' I was the driver and talk about 'the passenger' and the car' in the third person so as not to actually lie.

Believe me the retail park will jump and cancel it when you include them in the complaint like 'caryl2506' did over a disability breach against her elderly mother in Glamorgan Vale Retail Park:

In her case, it took the retail park managemnt 48 hours to deal with it an for ce the PPC to cancel even though they had declined an initial soft appeal (shocking but typical of their attitude to disability law!).

I'm going to e-mail them in the manner you reccomend, with the letter you wrote above and attach a scanned copy of the badge, I really want to stick two fingers up at these guys. I would love to add a line stating that any correspondance received from parking eye or there representatives (unless it be a full and frank apologie will be subject to a 25 pound charge in renumeration of time spent reading and replying to the afore mentioned correspondace, but i dare say i'd be obliged to lay out terms and conditions etc but would basically mean they accept to pay it if they write back and its not to appologise

Half_way

Seconded to the above, e-mail the parking company and most importantly the car park owner[/b] if possible that is if the car park is on a single retailer outlet site, or the car park owner can easily be found ( westfield/savills etc etc) by onsite signage.

in my opinion you should use an e-mail facility as it saves money ( stamps arent cheap nowadays) with written methods only being a last resort, or for official purposes