Heating/hot water provision....back to the drawing board

lostinrates

Some here might have seen the disastrous time we have had with our wood pellet boiler. The situation is still in dispute but we need to think about what to install for heating and hot water for the future. (It is now our hope that to resolve the dispute the boiler can be removed, and we will try and sell the five or six tonnes of wood pellet we have left to minimise our losses on that front).


We live rurally, no option of mains gas.

Oil is easy, and reliable, but not getting any cheaper to buy.

We are listed with some restrictions, but we have a barn roof space we things could be strengthen and house air source heat pump units we would need air to water system probably (having just added new radiators to the radiator system).

We were put off gshp, but perhaps that's worth a revisit?

We have a small area, big enough for one, maybe two panels which we thought we might put solar thermal on (we secured planning for this) to aid our hot water supply.

We have further barn roof space which in the future (when we have more money for a big upfront expense) we thought we might use for some quite serious pv panels....it's south facing and not shaded. We thought this might supply the house but also the electrical element of a heat pump?


It's daunting facing these decisions again, especially as things have gone wrong the first time!:o. Perhaps those with experience of heat pumps with old and or largish properties could tell me how they have found them practically?

lovesgshp

lostinrates wrote: »

Some here might have seen the disastrous time we have had with our wood pellet boiler. The situation is still in dispute but we need to think about what to install for heating and hot water for the future. (It is now our hope that to resolve the dispute the boiler can be removed, and we will try and sell the five or six tonnes of wood pellet we have left to minimise our losses on that front).


We live rurally, no option of mains gas.

Oil is easy, and reliable, but not getting any cheaper to buy.

We are listed with some restrictions, but we have a barn roof space we things could be strengthen and house air source heat pump units we would need air to water system probably (having just added new radiators to the radiator system).

We were put off gshp, but perhaps that's worth a revisit?

We have a small area, big enough for one, maybe two panels which we thought we might put solar thermal on (we secured planning for this) to aid our hot water supply.

We have further barn roof space which in the future (when we have more money for a big upfront expense) we thought we might use for some quite serious pv panels....it's south facing and not shaded. We thought this might supply the house but also the electrical element of a heat pump?


It's daunting facing these decisions again, especially as things have gone wrong the first time!:o. Perhaps those with experience of heat pumps with old and or largish properties could tell me how they have found them practically?

We have a number of clients with both GSHP and ASHP systems here in Italy. Most prefer GSHP, as it is more economical and requires no external servicing, unless a engineer is required. Many here are in old houses. The one here has operated for just under 13000 hours to date. One of our clients has a 350sq mtr house running 2x11kw output pumps, with a 500ltr DHW tank, using existing rads, as a retrofit. House has no roof insulation. Client emailed me the other day to say his electric bill had gone up to Euro 900 for 2 months, instead of the normal 300. Reason...... he did not clean the 3 filters, check if any alarms has operated. or check the ground loop pressure. System has been installed for 2 years. I have not corrected the English!!

These were the reasons, that were sorted out over the telephone with his plumber at the house.
The ground loop circuit pressure (water + glicol) was down. Run a small filling could be normally necessary. The control of this pressure is indicated in the manual as a periodic inspection to be performed, together with the filters cleaning.
On February 15, we register the following data.

Heat pump 1 (heating only)
Alarm log (menu 11 - Memorizza tutti gli allarmi)
yymmdd - alarm description
121114 - Low pressure switch - Bassa pressione refrigerante (LP)
121020 - 3-fasi non corretta - 3-phase incorrect
121003 - (LP)
101223 - 3-fasi non corretta - 3-phase incorrect
101219 - High pressure switch - Alta pressione refrigerante (HP)
I comment out only the recent alarms. Please read the manual.
Low pressure switch could be related to the air in the ground loop circuit due to the low pressure of the water on the loop ( cavitation, ecc...).
Incorrect three-phase happens when 1 or 2 phase are down or if the phase sequence is incorrect. I assume something has happened on the Enel power supply or any work on the electrical system of the house.... ?
Operating hours (menu 7 - Luttura tempo di funzionamento pompa di calore e riscaldamento aggiuntivo)
from the start-up on December 17, 2010.
7.1 - 1435h heat pump compressor running
7.3 - 705h electric heater running (@3kW)

Heat pump 2 (hot water and heating)
Alarm log
121020 - 3-fasi non corretta - 3-phase incorrect
121015 - DeltaT in/out riscaldamento - High Heat transfer fluid delta (GT8/GT9)
121012 - GT8/GT9
110917 - GT8/GT9
110909 - GT8/GT9
110613 - GT8/GT9
101223 - 3-fasi non corretta - 3-phase incorrect
101220 - Mandata troppo calda - Heat transfer fluid out max (GT8)
101219 - GT8
101219 - HP
101219 - (GT8/GT9)
Incorrect three phase - see heat pump 1
GT8/GT9, GT8 and HP are all alarms that could be related to the hot side (heating and hot water circuits). Particle filter cleaning, not enough flow, air in the circuit...
Operatin hours (menu 7)
7.1 - 2332h heat pump compressor running
7.2 - 61% a.c.s. (61% - 1423h for the hot water and 39% - 909h for the heating system)
7.3 - 106h electric heater running (@3kW)

On the heat pump 1 we read a lot of electric heater operating hours. The electric heater is not normally active but can be activated in case of alarm. The problem here is that you don't watch alarms and don' t take the necessary actions. So, we mechanically deactivate the electric heater, but in the future I reccommend to periodically have a look of the heat pump. So, we mechanically deactivate the electric heater, but in the future I recommend to periodically give a look to the heat pumps. If there is or there was an alarm the red led will blink until you check it (or until you shut off the heat pump).

Carried out operations

1. particle filter cleaning: heating circuit and ground loop circuit for each heat pump
2. pressure check and filling on the ground loop circuit
3. automatic venting valves open on the ground loop circuit (the valves will be closed after the venting of the circuit)
4. power off the electric heater with the power switch in the heat pump

matelodave

You'll probabaly find that the radiators you've got will be too small for a heat pump system. For reasonable efficiency and economy you need to run the heat pump with a system temp of around 35-40degrees. You'll probably find that your rads were sized for a boiler with a system temp of 60-80 degrees and running a heatpump at that temperature can be very expensive (there are a lot of people who have been disappointed with their systems because of this). Likewise the hotwater tank may no have the heating coil sized to work efficiently with the lower temperature of a heat pump.

My system was properly designed with low temperature underfloor heating and works efficiently but PV panels would not actually save me much money as we use most of our electricity (70%) in the winter when it's dark & cold, usually when the sun doesn't shine, likewise economy 7 wouldn't suit our needs either.

Get a proper system designed and ensure that you've got really efficient insulation before going for a heatpump - don't just try and bolt one on what you've already got. I'm not saying don't but make sure it will do the job first.

lovesgshp

matelodave wrote: »

You'll probabaly find that the radiators you've got will be too small for a heat pump system. For reasonable efficiency and economy you need to run the heat pump with a system temp of around 35-40degrees.
Too low for rads, it needs to be in the 50C range. 35C is usually for UFH. COP will decrease more, as you move into a higher energy use, but as the post earlier, the increased cost was due to the client not checking the basics, which were explained at the time of the unit being commissioned. Other than that, he was saving about Euro 3000 per year over his LPG costs.

You'll probably find that your rads were sized for a boiler with a system temp of 60-80 degrees and running a heatpump at that temperature can be very expensive (there are a lot of people who have been disappointed with their systems because of this). Likewise the hotwater tank may no have the heating coil sized to work efficiently with the lower temperature of a heat pump.
Depends on the hot water tank, heat pumps can keep DHW at 55C. The one here has no problem at 50C on a 160ltr tank.

My system was properly designed with low temperature underfloor heating and works efficiently but PV panels would not actually save me much money as we use most of our electricity (70%) in the winter when it's dark & cold, usually when the sun doesn't shine, likewise economy 7 wouldn't suit our needs either.

Get a proper system designed and ensure that you've got really efficient insulation before going for a heatpump - don't just try and bolt one on what you've already got. I'm not saying don't but make sure it will do the job first.

Agree with the proper system design. We have many retrofit installations on radiators, without having to change the sizing. Usually all is needed is a buffer tank to stabilize the output heating temp and alter the heating curves higher. Circulating pump speed can also be increased.

lovesgshp

Lostinrates.
How many sq mtrs is the house?

hostlander

We own a hotel (built 1860s) in the Scottish Highlands and have moved from oil boilers to GSHP, we have two 37kW GSHP using 12 boreholes of 125m depth feeding the existing radiator system (mainly cast iron rads).

We find the temperatures produced by the rads ample as they are now on 24/7 rather than having short bursts at higher temperatures.

In round numbers
in 2011 we spent £18000 on oil
in 2012 we spent £12500 on electricity for the heat pump system

This includes more immersion element use than you would have domestically because we need permanent and plentiful hot water availability.

We are getting much more heat for our expense too, much warmer than it has ever been before.

lostinrates

Geotherm wrote: »

Lostinrates.
How many sq mtrs is the house?

I don't have the drawings in front of me, but more than 450 but not as much as five hundred. I think. .

Construction is mainly solid wall (brick). In the bit we have renovated so far we added internal insulation, but do not propose to do that in the rest of the house (that section was a victorian renovation and had been done in thinner brick, we added an internal block wall, insulation etc etc. Some is to be modern construction, which will obviously be 'better'. There are five open fire chimneys. (So some heat loss there). Also potentially relevant is that its a long house....there is a 'lot of surface area' for the size if you understand what I mean) and it lies mainly north to south. The west side warms up nicely when the sun is out but the east side is cool on the hottest days.

Hostlander, that is really encouraging. We were hoping all along to add some borehole gshp under the part of the house that is to be modern contruction.

Its pretty expensive upfront isn't it? Do you know how it compared to the other sort of pipe laying? Did you get quotes for both?

lovesgshp

lostinrates wrote: »

I don't have the drawings in front of me, but more than 450 but not as much as five hundred. I think. .

Construction is mainly solid wall (brick). In the bit we have renovated so far we added internal insulation, but do not propose to do that in the rest of the house (that section was a victorian renovation and had been done in thinner brick, we added an internal block wall, insulation etc etc. Some is to be modern construction, which will obviously be 'better'. There are five open fire chimneys. (So some heat loss there). Also potentially relevant is that its a long house....there is a 'lot of surface area' for the size if you understand what I mean) and it lies mainly north to south. The west side warms up nicely when the sun is out but the east side is cool on the hottest days.

Hostlander, that is really encouraging. We were hoping all along to add some borehole gshp under the part of the house that is to be modern contruction.

Its pretty expensive upfront isn't it? Do you know how it compared to the other sort of pipe laying? Did you get quotes for both?

You may be interested in this info, that one of our clients sent to another enquirer here. It is a 400 sq mtr house using 2 x 17Kw GSHP units with ground loops. If you have the land available then this is the cheapest option.
[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif] Dear xxxx. First let me say at once that I could not be more pleased with the performance of the IVT heat pump. This is the third winter that the system is operational and it maintains a constant heat throughout the house all day and night. With regards to Geotherm I cannot comment on their after sale service simply because since installation the Heat Pump has worked perfectly and required no maintenance or repair: it appears to be a very reliable machine. They remain always ready however to provide telehphone advice and guidance.
Bear in mind that, unless their practice has evolved, all they do is supply the hardware and provide detailed and very clear printed instructions for 3 things:
1) the laying of the ground loop (but under their supervision, as they pressure test after)

2) the electrical connection
3) the Hydraulic connnection
However these three steps you have to arrange yourself through local contractors
My experience has taught me that it is best not to reduce the indoor temperature at night because then the machine needs to work very hard in the morning to restore the desired temperature and in fact, in a 24 hour cycle, uses more energy.
Secondly, because at best the water temperature at the radiators reaches 60/65 degrees, as opposed to the 80/85 degrees produced by a gas boiler, it is important to never turn the system off: to reheat a cold house with the heat pump would probably take 2 weeks !
Thirdly it is very important to fully understand the various adjustments and settings which are made on the electronic panel on the heat pump. It will take a while to achieve the right heating conditions through experimenting with various settings.
Lastly, if it is of interest to you, my system consumes approx. 10,000 kwh of electrical energy per annum (and this assumes a stone house, facing north, of approx. 400 sq. meters)
With reference to points 1/2/3 above: The ground loops are marked out and depth/width are specified by us. Pressure testing is after the laying.
Plumber and Electrician are given the full connection diagrams on a individual installation basis, due to the time it may take for them to complete the work.

When the system is finally installed, 1 or 2 of our engineers arrive to commission the system and make any other adjustments. The plumber and the electrician are usually required to be on site that day, in case there are any connection problems.
HTH

[/FONT]

lostinrates

Thanks geotherm.

How much land is required for that loop laying? Is there any requirement of the land....any type not suitable for example? And how deeply is the loop laid?

lovesgshp

lostinrates wrote: »

Thanks geotherm.

How much land is required for that loop laying? Is there any requirement of the land....any type not suitable for example? And how deeply is the loop laid?

Hi, I have attached our normal FAQ's, which will help to explain a lot. Depending on the pump size required, for your situation, I would think between 4 - 600 sq mtrs. Excavations would be 1.2 to 1.5 mtrs deep (depending on soil type) x 1.2 mtrs wide, with trench seperation of 3 mtrs. 4 lines in each trench @ 30cm spacing.
The IVT system we use here is what you have as Worcester Bosch. They are both made in the same factory in Sweden.

[FONT=&quot]What is a Geotherm system?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A Geotherm system with an IVT geothermal heating pump is an electric heater, with no combustion, and through a small refrigerator compressor, (which has ecological refrigerant and 2 heat exchangers), produces hot and cold water using the natural energy which lays in the ground of your garden. Moreover, our heating pumps give you all the hot water you need for sanitary use. The system consists of a heat pump and special pipes buried under the ground. Our systems can be used with every internal heating or cooling system and in all types of ground and situations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks to our partnership with the Swedish agency IVT, we can offer you a personalized system with good reliability. There are over 300,000 systems in use all over the world with these heat pumps using the technical expertise of this company. With more than 10 years experience, Geotherm is the oldest agency in Italy in this field and the most specialized one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How does the system work?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Geothermal heating pumps work in a similar way as your fridge, or better, for the heating system the opposite way. To understand what happens: the warm liquid that has taken the energy from the ground circuit makes thermal contact with the refrigerant which then changes from a liquid to gas state in the process. This refrigerant is then compressed which raises its temperature thereby heating the water for your house’s heating system. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How does our garden have this energy and how deep is it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The earth takes around 47% of the Suns radiation and keeps it like a clean and renewable energy. This is more than 400 times that mankind needs and is at our disposal just a few meters deep. If we[/FONT][FONT=&quot] analyse[/FONT][FONT=&quot] soil temperature accumulated in a year then we see that it is nearly the same in both winter & summer. During cold months it is hotter than the outside air and in hot months cooler. Our garden is a huge heating resource, a large battery charged by the sun and geothermal systems use it with great success.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is this energy really free?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes. It is free, natural, renewable and with no additional costs. The only expenditure is the heating pump which has to take it from the ground. Prehistoric men used caves as shelter, many animals like the badger (our symbol) and the desert fox excavate the ground to keep cool in the hottest hours of the day and hibernate in the winter.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How do I get this energy?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To use this energy we put in some worm pipes which depending on the requirements these are either vertical or horizontal by excavating small trenches. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]If you have a small house then we can use small exchangers to cause little disruption. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Our engineers have many possible configurations available. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Once the project is started then we firstly excavate and lay the exchangers in the trench and then cover them so that you can forget they are there. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The worm pipes are plastic and prepared in Switzerland and supplied by us. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have never heard of this technology, is it new?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is not well known in Italy yet, but it is used in many countries over the world. The system is well known in many European countries, the USA and Canada. Totally there are over a million systems in use. The first in 1927 installed in Scotland by Sir Haldane. Since then the system has spread and over the last 15 years the technology has advanced even further. In Sweden, over 90% of houses have this system. Geotherm has introduced this for the first time in Italy so that everyone can get to know it and its advantages[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How efficient are your geothermal heating pumps?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Our manufacturer has more than 30 years experience in this technology, which is used in areas where the temperature drops to -35C. Their efficiency is the best you can find on the market. Between 2 to 4 free heating kilowatt for 1 electrical Kw giving a room heat of 3-5 heating Kw. For example 150-180 Sq mtrs with good insulation can be heated with the same expenditure as an electric stove heating a bathroom[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What kind of system must I have at home?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Every kind[/FONT][FONT=&quot] – floor, ceiling, wall, skirting board, vent, heating system, radiators. Like IVT we are the only ones in the world who can guarantee with our HT Plus, a temperature above 60C with normal ecological refrigerant. Currently many families in Northern Italy have already forgotten the boiler with its oil, smoke and risks and are using our system connected to normal radiators.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is a floor heating system good for Geotherm?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, our technology works very well with a floor heating system. Moreover you will no longer need most of the expensive checks and mixing systems as these are already inside our pumps. This means the installation is cheaper and there are no additions to buy if you use a normal boiler[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How large are the heating pumps?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Approximately the same size as a large refrigerator (60 x 60cm). In addition the hot water tank, (which is integrated in some models), otherwise about the same as a second refrigerator. Most elements are inside the computer setup in the unit, reducing plumber costs and utilizing a small area for installation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Where should the pump be situated?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anywhere in the house is ok as there is no burning of fuel. Usually it is in a cellar, garage or a free room inside or out. The only requirement is that is sheltered from rain or snow.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is it a difficult system to use?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No. When we commission the system we set with you the comfort levels you would like and personalize it to your lifestyle.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Can the system provide hot water for sanitary use?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of course it can. We have to consider how many people are living in the house and how much water they use. Also if you have a hydro-massage bath.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]What type of electrical contract do I need to have?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The standard single phase of 3.5 Kw usually is enough for a 100-150 sq mtr insulated house, with no change. If you need extra energy then you need to increase the power ( Kw ). Our advice is to change the single phase to a 3 phase supply. For a large house you need a 3 phase supply. We will advise you on the requirements when we quote. We also can supply Photovoltaic systems for a fully green system.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have radiators and my expenditure for oil is very high. Can I change my boiler with your pump?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, you will be able to save money. Usually your costs will be half to one third of your previous expenditure.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am going to have a new house, well insulated. Is it a good idea using your system?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes. The Geotherm system is really good if you have a well insulated house because you can make the best use of the energy coming from the ground. American and Swiss EnergyStar plus Sinergie standard are satisfied with our system.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Can a good plumber fit a Geotherm system?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes. Our heating pumps have clear instructions to fit them. In our offer is usually inclusive of the project and also technical assistance during the installation and the starting test.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Can we use standard water or gas pipes in the ground for the Exchangers?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No. Even if the material is nearly the same, there are some laws in the world that deal with the ground exchangers. You can recognize water and gas pipes as they have blue or yellow vertical lines. There are standard and specialized pipes that improve the functionality of the system. Geotherm supplies and uses the specialized ones according to German, Swedish and American laws. Whatever supplier you choose with Geotherm or somebody else always ask for a specialized pipe and not a plastic one![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is the length of the pipes always the same?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No it isn’t. Pipe length and shape is different according to the situation. Climate, house size and insulation, excavation depth, distance between pipes and garden boundaries. Every system Geotherm gives you is ad hoc projected with lots of competence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Geotherm is the only agency in Italy which has a “CGO” certificate as a certified GeoExchange Designer to the Federal American office Geotherm and passed a selection examination in 2000. This is the highest level of competence. More over Geotherm has to pass this exam again every 3 years.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have a small garden, do I have to use a vertical installation?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not if you don’t want to. If your house is well insulated and approx 150 sq. mtrs we just need 40sq mtrs of garden for a system with small pipes, easily fitted by your plumber. These pipes normally need very narrow 10 cm. by 2.5 mtr deep holes. They have been tested in the Arctic Pole and are cheaper than the vertical installation.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Is the vertical installation more efficient than the horizontal or super compact one?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No, it depends on the engineer to ensure that the system will work well. He has to mix the cheapest cost at the beginning to complement the working way of the system. The vertical system is well known in northern countries e.g. Austria and Switzerland as they have lots of mountains, small gardens and land is very expensive. The USA, Canada, France and the UK use horizontal installations[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How large is the excavation?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Geotherm can give its customers different choices of the pipe layout. If you are having a super compact installation then the ground needs 30 – 35 mtrs excavation for the different lines.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Can my digger or building company make the excavations and fit horizontal or super compact pipes?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, of course it can. If you use the horizontal or super compact then we suggest you use a local company as it will be cheaper. The digging does not need any special machinery, it’s easy to fit the pipes and does not need specialized workers. Usually our customer needs just 2 workers for a couple of days helped by our engineers. Excavations are usually made after our Engineering Dept. has checked the project so that you know exactly where to dig.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is there any kind of ground where it is not possible to put your pipes?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No ground type can change the pipe size or shape. Specialized projects and personalization give you the best from your garden in the least space[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What is a Geothermal drill?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These are our pipes fitted vertically by drilling. The pipes comply with every German, Swiss and Swedish law and they are not simple water pipes.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is the Geothermal system ecological?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, it is. According to the American Energy Dept, they are a system which heat and air-condition rooms with no pollution problem. Such a kind of installation allows the USA to save 14 million barrels of oil each year.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What is the difference between the Geotherm system and another one which looks similar?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Reliability, project care, particular materials and the attention we give to every project. We are not just a heating company, we don’t sell boilers, heating systems or air conditioners. We solely deal with Geothermal installations. That’s why customers can rely on our competence in this field[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What are your project and fitting standards?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With Geotherm you have a good partner chosen among the most selective departments.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Geotherm works according to the AEE Association of Energy Engineers USA. It is the only agency in [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Italy to have an engineer who attended the AEE and is a certified CGD Certified GeoExchange [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Engineer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Geotherm from 1999 is a certificated installer IGSHPA. IGSHPA is the reference agency for the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] whole of the world in heating using geothermal pumps and is in Oklahoma USA. Geotherm work on every[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] installation according to IGSHPA laws.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Geotherm if needed for vertical installations closes every hole according to German law to avoid [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] water pollution.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Geotherm only uses pipes according to the law, tested before supply.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Geotherm only uses tested heating pumps and not normal adapted types for underground use.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Geotherm does not test new things during any installation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Compare Geotherm with other companies and then choose your project[/FONT][FONT=&quot]![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Do I need much maintenance?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No, our systems usually don’t need maintenance at all. In boilers there are elements which put up with a temperature higher than 100C. Our system has a maximum temperature below 100C so the risk of damage is smaller. How many times did your refrigerator break down over the last years?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What is the usual expenditure for these systems?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example if your house is 150 – 180 sq mtrs, insulated with an underfloor heating system, your electricity bill will increase by Euro 1000 – 1500 per year. We remind you that the Geotherm system is the best on the market and it will take from the ground 2 – 4 Kw for free for a Kw of electricity, giving your house 3 – 5 Kw of heating.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What does the Geotherm system compose of?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Usually it is composed of Geotherm heating pump, hot water tank, ground pipes, temperature checking system, project and help during excavations. Testing and starting up of the system.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is the Geotherm system expensive?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One of the biggest problems our customers have is the high expenditure you have to afford in the beginning. For example if you house is 70 – 120 sq mtrs , well insulated, then the the price for the Geothermal system is more or less 14000 – 15000 euros + IVA, 170 – 200 sq. mtrs, 16000 – 17000 euros + IVA, 200 – 300 sq. mtrs 18000 – 20000 euros + IVA. These prices exclude the cost of ground excavations which is usually completed by a local company to you, with guidance from our engineers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To obtain a more precise quotation we ask you to fill in our questionnaire and obtain details of the Thermal Loading of your property. You soon get this money back from the time you start to heat your house. Usually within 4 – 7 years you will get your money back.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Why should I change my boiler with a Geotherm system?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No risk of burning, no gas leaks, up to 70% less expenditure than oil or gas. No more gas tank to fill, just one system for heating and/or air conditioning. Finally our reliability and specialised materials.[/FONT]

Canucklehead

So here's a question for geotherm.

Given that lostinrates house is between 450 and 500 m2 do you consider a 28kw pellet boiler with a 500l thermal store sufficient to provide heat and DHW for that house?

Also compare to your quote.....

a 400 sq mtr house using 2 x 17Kw GSHP units with ground loops.

=34kw.


Curious.