Northern Rail fixed penalty notice

carpe_vino

I recieved a fixed penalty notice from Northern rail 3 months after the alleged offence, circumstances outlined below, do I have any right of appeal or rather what would be my chances in a magistrates court as i strongly believe i should not pay the penalty.

I got to Urmston railway station at 9.18am, just as the train was due, for an interview with an agency in Manchester at 10am. When I arrived at the station there was aqueue in the ticket office (or a number of people in the office who appeared tobe waiting to purchase tickets) and rather than miss the train and be late formy interview I opted to get on the train and pay the guard. Unfortunately theguard did not reach me during the journey so instead I went straight to theticket office and purchased a ticket from Urmston to Deansgate, a 5.3 mile journey costing £3.40.

As I walked to the exit I was stopped by a very aggressivelady who stated that she believed I had not paid the correct fare and asked if Icould I prove where I got on the train. I did say surely that I lived in Urmston was this not fairly obvious. Also I had noticed workmen workingon the opposite track (Manchester to Liverpool) at Urmston station, was thisproof enough? I was asked for and presented proof of ID and address proving Urmston was my nearest station. The officerstated that I should have been given a leaflet at Urmston and as I hadn’t hadthis leaflet this clearly proved that I couldn’t have boarded the train atUrmston. I advised that I hadn’t been given a leaflet as I had been in a rushfor the train and had not gone into the ticket office so obviously the officersat Urmston had missed me. I showed my ticket for Urmston to Deansgate which I hadpurchased in front of them. I was advised the officers would review cctv and ifthey failed to find any sign of me would be in touch, as I heard nothing withina few weeks I believed common sense to have prevailed. I had considered making acomplaint about the attitude of your female officer however as I did not gether name I decided not to pursue this.

I admit that I did not purchase a ticket in advance but hadevery intention of purchasing on the train if the guard had got to me however asthis did not happen I ensured that I did not leave the station without payingthe correct fare and I did not refuse to identify myself, I fail to seetherefore where there is an offence.

wealdroam

carpe_vino wrote: »

I recieved a fixed penalty notice from Northern rail 3 months after the alleged offence, circumstances outlined below, do I have any right of appeal or rather what would be my chances in a magistrates court as i strongly believe i should not pay the penalty.

I got to Urmston railway station at 9.18am, just as the train was due, for an interview with an agency in Manchester at 10am. When I arrived at the station there was aqueue in the ticket office (or a number of people in the office who appeared tobe waiting to purchase tickets) and rather than miss the train and be late formy interview I opted to get on the train and pay the guard. Unfortunately theguard did not reach me during the journey so instead I went straight to theticket office and purchased a ticket from Urmston to Deansgate, a 5.3 mile journey costing £3.40.

As I walked to the exit I was stopped by a very aggressivelady who stated that she believed I had not paid the correct fare and asked if Icould I prove where I got on the train. I did say surely that I lived in Urmston was this not fairly obvious. Also I had noticed workmen workingon the opposite track (Manchester to Liverpool) at Urmston station, was thisproof enough? I was asked for and presented proof of ID and address proving Urmston was my nearest station. The officerstated that I should have been given a leaflet at Urmston and as I hadn’t hadthis leaflet this clearly proved that I couldn’t have boarded the train atUrmston. I advised that I hadn’t been given a leaflet as I had been in a rushfor the train and had not gone into the ticket office so obviously the officersat Urmston had missed me. I showed my ticket for Urmston to Deansgate which I hadpurchased in front of them. I was advised the officers would review cctv and ifthey failed to find any sign of me would be in touch, as I heard nothing withina few weeks I believed common sense to have prevailed. I had considered making acomplaint about the attitude of your female officer however as I did not gether name I decided not to pursue this.

I admit that I did not purchase a ticket in advance but hadevery intention of purchasing on the train if the guard had got to me however asthis did not happen I ensured that I did not leave the station without payingthe correct fare and I did not refuse to identify myself, I fail to seetherefore where there is an offence.

Information on this thread may help you... but then again, maybe not.

giraffe69

1. You didn't purchase a ticket in advance
2. You didn't turn up at the station and give yourself enough time to purchase one
3. You didn't find the conductor whilst you were on the train but waited for him to come to you and he didn't

I think you are not in a good position however you could ask whether they found the cctv footage of you to demonstrate you got on where you said you did.

carpe_vino

the journey takes around 8-10 minutes and the train has 2 carriages and was extremely crowded, I looked for the conductor but he was at the opposite end of the other carriage i wouldnt have reached him in time to have paid

carpe_vino

thanks wealdroam I have mailed Northern Rail and await their response, and have also mailed passenger focus. Am of a mind to let them take me to court for a £0.00 unpaid fare from unknown to Deansgate and hope I get a magistrate with common sense!

Stigy

The issue here is that a ticket wasn't purchased, which is why the notice was issued, irrespective of where you boarded the train. There's a considerable length of time you need to be queuing before you can simply get on the train without buying a ticket first. Were there ticket machines available? Assuming it's a Byelaw offence the notice was issued in accordance with, this is a strict liability matter, to which your only defence would be if there were not sufficient ticket issuing facilities available. Mitigation could be the queue, but I don't fancy your chances to be honest.

The train having two coaches, in my opinion, isn't something that'll work in your favour, even if it was packed.



Not sure how these notices work as they're new I believe, but I'm assuming it's similar to an out of court settlement, whereby there's no appeal other than the Magistrates' Court.

carpe_vino

its a very small station with no ticket machines

carpe_vino

Also - a ticket was purchased, after the journey but before I left railway premises.

Stigy

carpe_vino wrote: »

Also - a ticket was purchased, after the journey but before I left railway premises.

Did you buy the ticket before being stopped by staff? Regardless the offence had been committed the moment you boarded without first buying a ticket. If you bought the ticket before being stopped, this would only really help your case should they summons you to court under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, where intent to avoid payment needs to be evident.

I guess you could appeal to their better nature, but I don't fancy your chances to be honest.

carpe_vino

yes I went straight to the ticket office and bought a ticket and was then stopped as I tried to leave. They believe I was trying to pay a lesser fare - however the station I travelled from is 0.9 miles from home, the next 2 stations are 1.8 and 1.9 miles from home and the same fare, and the next station 5.6 miles and a 30 minute drive away and still only 60p more. my mistake was in being late for the train (due to being busy looking after my wife who had been diaagnosed with terminal cancer 2 weeks earlier and rushing to try to get a job after being made redundant 2 days later - I'm not making this up!)

ljonski

(due to being busy looking after my wife who had been diaagnosed with terminal cancer 2 weeks earlier and rushing to try to get a job after being made redundant 2 days later - I'm not making this up!)

If this is the case you may find that its better to pay up and get it over with as you have more important battles to face!