Northern Rail fixed penalty notice

geordie_taxi

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

This is a new scheme they are doing as they do not have a Penalty Fare scheme so its instead of them lining up lots and lots of court cases every day of the year when most people would probably settle out of court anyway instead of going to one and possibly incurring a higher penalty in the form of a fine from the court. This has not be questioned in a court yet to see whether this sort of fixed penalty is the right way to go about things in absence of a proper Penalty Fare scheme which would be too difficult to administer.

so let get this right. northern rail have a scheme which has no legal precedent ie byelaws or railway act and their using this scheme to extort monies. isnt that known as blackmail which is illegal in this country

OP i dont know the value of said fixed penalty is but it might be worth obtaining legal advice on this

Jeff_Bridges_hair

geordie_taxi wrote: »

so let get this right. northern rail have a scheme which has no legal precedent ie byelaws or railway act and their using this scheme to extort monies. isnt that known as blackmail which is illegal in this country

OP i dont know the value of said fixed penalty is but it might be worth obtaining legal advice on this

No, the bylaws do cover them as you well know, you must purchase a ticket before boarding a train where facilities exist to purchase one, if you do not then you are in breach of the bylaws which can be either in the form of a penalty fare - where the scheme is ran or by prosecution. So your statement is wrong. Again.

This is not blackmail though the legality is a grey area. Most people would offer to settle out of court and this is their way of doing so rather than just taking them to court and clogging up the magistrates. Which do you reckon most would prefer , court, or an out of court settlement?

I don't think their way is the right way at the moment but I bet most people would rather not take a day off work and have to go to court.

geordie_taxi

jeff. the byelaws cover the offence not the dodgy scheme, else why did they bother with introducing the penalty fare system used down south if they cud have just have used this scheme backed by the byelaws

this scheme is just tantalising 'give us ur money or we will prosecute' which is blackmail whether u like it or not. in my eyes this is ok if ur a fare dodger but if ur an honest unfortunate passenger who made a mistake then ur in trouble with no official appeals body/system which is why we have the penalty fare system

not wanting to cover old ground but you know it perfectly acceptable to board a train without a ticket* and most conductors r quite happy to sell u a ticket instead of prosecuting u even when facilities exist to buy said tickets its all about customer services which unfortunately some train companies have forgotten in their haste to make a quick buck


*dependant on train company

Stigy

This scheme is no different from a Penalty Notice for Disorder or Fixed Penalty Notice that the Police issue. The only difference is that the Government pockets the money from the Police schemes. This is arguably more ethical as the amount of the notice goes to the TOC and is less than the costs they'd get in court anyway. With the police there are no costs incurred that the Government should get!

Of course these would be backed by the Byelaws. Northern are demonstrating to the court that they don't wish to criminalise people so are looking at other penal systems. If the ticket goes unpaid, the issuee can be prosecuted, as they committed the offence. I believe other TOCs are soon to trial such schemes too.

Stigy

katejo wrote: »

But some train companies allow you to pay on the train. It is not always a requirement to do so in advance.

Indeed they do, not in this case I assume, otherwise the Penalty Notice wouldn't have been issued. Byelaws still apply if there were facilities available to buy tickets etc. if buying on board was permitted due to policy, there'd be a notice indicating this a d as such, you wouldn't be in breach of the Byelaws for boarding without a ticket.

Naf

Surely it's innocent until proven guilty?
So if it actually went to court then Northern need to show evidence too prove where the OP actually boarded. If they can't then they'll be thrown out.

Stigy

Naf wrote: »

Surely it's innocent until proven guilty?
So if it actually went to court then Northern need to show evidence too prove where the OP actually boarded. If they can't then they'll be thrown out.

They would take the journey taken as what the OP has said it was, as they can prove he made that journey. If they had proof that he travelled from further afield the charge would be more serious anyway. I'm confused to an extent because the staff obviously thought he came from a different station. If they were that adament, normal practise would be to report the facts for consideration of prosecution in the first place. It seems the notice was issued on a 'benefit of the doubt' basis.

carpe_vino

Thanks everyone for your comments, I just wanted to report back that Northern Rail have just written to me to confirm they have closed the matter down. I also need to thank Laura Wilson at Passenger Focus for her help.

geordie_taxi

carpe_vino wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your comments, I just wanted to report back that Northern Rail have just written to me to confirm they have closed the matter down. I also need to thank Laura Wilson at Passenger Focus for her help.

excellent news. good to c that passenger focus sorted this out for u

katejo

carpe_vino wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your comments, I just wanted to report back that Northern Rail have just written to me to confirm they have closed the matter down. I also need to thank Laura Wilson at Passenger Focus for her help.

Pleased to hear that. I thought of your case on wednesday this week when I had to travel on Northern Rail to Hull.