Bitcoins

Satoshi

sabretoothtigger wrote: »

I think its more like 1 coin per day, maybe not an ounce but more then a few grams
Just a few grams would make all sorts of cutlery and plates in existence worth thousands, its more likely hundred or so tops.

Someone pointed out the best reference is the longest standing currency of modern times which is the Byzantium empire
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=similar%3A77478&view_mode=1#0

Yes one coin per day which was about 3grams of silver or a tenth of an ounce has been the historical norm through history for a 12hr full days wage.

grey_gym_sock

Satoshi wrote: »

This is the biggest hurdle to get over, its people understanding crypto. Will little old laddies going to do their shopping undertstand units of crypto?

anybody who shops on the internet is using crypto. almost nobody understands the crypto. that doesn't stop them.

Or how to measure the value of each unit of all the competing crypto currencies.

sterling has the same "problem" as bitcoin - no intrinsic value. yet ppl who never have never thought about intrinsic value manage to work out whether they are paying a fair price in sterling. in reality, ppl can get used to assessing value in any currency, providing it is sufficiently stable. unstable value is (for now) a real problem for bitcoin.

grey_gym_sock

M.Johnson wrote: »

the true definition of money is a long term store of wealth over long periods of time, not hundreds of years but thousands.

well, that's 1 definition ...

but on that definition, money per se sounds totally irrelevant to most ppl, whose financial aims might include storing wealth until they spend it next year, and growing wealth to support themselves in retirement or leave it to their children, but not burying wealth at the bottom of the garden so that some random can find it after a few thousand years.

Satoshi

grey_gym_sock wrote: »

well, that's 1 definition ...

but on that definition, money per se sounds totally irrelevant to most ppl, whose financial aims might include storing wealth until they spend it next year, and growing wealth to support themselves in retirement or leave it to their children, but not burying wealth at the bottom of the garden so that some random can find it after a few thousand years.

Not just one definition. There are exact definitions of money and currency that can not be argued against for all of history.

But to really answer the question what is money you first need to understand the difference between money and currency. The official definitions of currency and money are:
Currency must be a medium of exchange so we have to be able to buy and sell things with it. It has to be a unit of account, so one gram or unit is equal to one gram or unit. It has to be portable so not to large or heavy. It has to be divisible which means you can make change. Durable which means it has to has to last and not dissolve in water or evaporate or degrade in near extreme temperatures. And then something called fungible. Fungible means that each unit is interchangeable so the unit in your pocket buys the same as the unit in my pocket.
Money has to be all these things plus it has to be a store of value over long periods of time. So if you only remember one thing today remember that lots of things have been currency but only two things have ever been money. Nothing else meets ALL of these requirements and is a long term store of value only gold and silver are money in and of themselves. There are many things that are a long term store of value (like land for instance) but they do not meet the other requirements land is not portable. Diamonds some say are a good long term store of value and very portable but not fungible because no two grams or units of diamonds are worth exactly the same.
Salt and tobacco as we have said meet most of the requirements of currency but are not durable even if they arguably do hold their value over long periods of time like money does, gold and silver. Things like this do hold their value over long periods of time but what good is this if they are not durable. Just because the value of something lasts the thing itself may not. Even modern digital currencies like Bit coin may well meet all or many of the requirements of currency but can not be a long term store of value because it is dependent on many things like electricity and Internet being reliable and not being hacked or messed with. Bit coins can not have any intrinsic value in themselves because they do not exist, they are virtual currencies. They come and go. Bit coins may be limited in quantity but they are not limited in competing digital competitors so the number of bit coin lookalikes could be infinite. Bit coins and suchlike are only a medium of exchange they don't have any use in themselves other than a virtual currency, so can not be a long term store of value. They can not be money in and of themselves like for example gold and silver coins because Bit coins and other virtual currencies are digital and not tangible they are not backed by anything just like fiat currencies from governments.
It is worth repeating, Many things have been used as currency but nothing has met all these requirements and been a lasting store of value over long periods of time, only gold and silver are money. The key point to remember is - Only gold and silver are money, EVERYTHING else that has been used as a medium of exchange is just currency.
Currency
medium of exchange unit of account
portable
divisible
durable
fungible
slowly becomes worth less
Money all the above except slowly becomes worth-less instead - STORE OF VALUE over long periods of time

Bit coin is currency not money.

lvader

Silver had failed miserably to store wealth, so you seem to agree it isn't money.

JohnRo

Money is a concept that exists in the mind. Money stores value, that value is imputed by the utility provided to those who use it.

The only requirement for money is trust and adoption of the medium that carries the concept. You can have arguments about which medium is best.

Currency merely represents the concept in everyday life.

grey_gym_sock

Satoshi wrote: »

Not just one definition. There are exact definitions of money and currency that can not be argued against for all of history.

good grief. repeating your definition of "money" many times, in far more words than are necessary, doesn't make it the only definition.

grey_gym_sock wrote: »

but on that definition, money per se sounds totally irrelevant to most ppl

and this is the more important part of my previous post.

lvader

It seems some peoples definition on money is something that can't be used to buy goods and services.

padington

It's currently a way of moving money around and speculating with and one day may become money itself.

What's highly probable is that a form of Crypto 'currency' will probably become a trusted international form of money. It will probably take a major tech firm and a national government working in unison to back it but I think it's fair to say its on the cards.

It may not be bit coin because the partners will want a nice cut but I dare say the currency bit of the term 'crypto currency' will soon enough no longer be challenged by many, just give it time, it's still very early days.

2010

lvader wrote: »

It seems some peoples definition on money is something that can't be used to buy goods and services.

The phrase "the kings new clothes" comes to mind.