Nice people thread part 8 - worth the wait

neverdespairgirl

lostinrates wrote: »

To disguise their own scent when hunting, and to confuse it with their own, and some suggest to bring that scent home to the pack.

I can tell you for certain that the head of Doglet's pack (my mother) doesn't approve of him bringing the scent home.....

zagubov

lostinrates wrote: »

I think the idea is probably confusion. Also, in human studies iirc peoe see what they are looking for, not the unknown oddity. So if prey are looking for 'fox' they might not register wolf. It's certainly ,y experience riding horses, often so busy seeing imaginary monsters in hedges they calmly deal with lorries or barking dogs.

Btw...try riding a young and naive horse past a field of pigs, donkeys (you would think they would deal with the visual and smell of a donkey , right?) and even sheep......prey 'minds' and instincts are not as we might think at first.....

It's a weird topic. I always wondered why dogs barked and advertised their attack direction when chasing prey, when cats are silent but I presume that pack animals haver to coordinate signals and locations so the pack can coordinate and coverge for the kill.

I'd expect a solitary predator like a cat would be silent in a kill.Maybe not pack cats like lions I suppose.

I always feel there's a lot of guesswork and little certainty in this field.

lostinrates

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

I can tell you for certain that the head of Doglet's pack (my mother) doesn't approve of him bringing the scent home.....

Well...I don't love it.

But imagine you are doglet and for sake of arguement lets to with that theory as being ThE one.

Doglet finds poop and comes to Ndmater or rolls in it and Ndmater shows disapproval ...or is it....could she be...excited? (You see, doglet might not be sure). Lets say Ndmater is more than able to be clear, because i consider it highly likely that is the case.....doglet gets she is cross...but why.....is it because he doesn't smell strong enough...is it because its only one poop...is it because he hasn't done enough rather than too much.....

Instinct is a difficult drive to train against...ethically at least as much as practically. E.g. We started loo training the cats. I found it was fun...a novel yet easily achieved thing...many cats do it. But actually given a choice cats use litter. To them the instinct to 'cover' and be clean is more important than the practicality. It's not enough for me to know I can train an alternative if I feel I am reducing their quality of life, and I feel they demonstrated clearly that they felt that was the case...whilst not displaying any negative behavioural acts.

Rolling......well, I cannot stop dog dog doing it when I cannot see her , but she sure as anything looks round to see if I am there or not when she has found something fun to roll in (btw, they like poultry poo to roll in too I fine, and hedge hog...pretty much anything). She won't do it if I am looking at her....:o. Ethics on performing natural behaviours are challenged more when the house is so cold and no hot water. Fwiw, a cold bath outside on a cold day stops it for weeks but is exceptionally horrid for both her and me.....I cannot argue it is a great welfare decision.

Spirit_2

lostinrates wrote: »

Btw...try riding a young and naive horse past a field of pigs, donkeys (you would think they would deal with the visual and smell of a donkey , right?) and even sheep......prey 'minds' and instincts are not as we might think at first.....

When DD was small and out on "Spirit" we used to go past a lovely field...but sometimes it was full of Ostriches.

It was then a nightmare as pony exercised her right to be scared witless. She could go backwards very fast, snort like a dragon, make herself grow or shrink, go sideways into hedges.

For a parent taking the reins and making soothing sounds and coaxing to "walk on" she would show her gratitude by pulling your arms out. This was deifinitely a blue job and a route only to be tackled when my OH (who is the horsey parent) was about.

Ostriches are not peaceful creatures.

The fields of Llama's were generally OK.

lostinrates

zagubov wrote: »

It's a weird topic. I always wondered why dogs barked and advertised their attack direction when chasing prey, when cats are silent but I presume that pack animals haver to coordinate signals and locations so the pack can coordinate and coverge for the kill.

I'd expect a solitary predator like a cat would be silent in a kill.Maybe not pack cats like lions I suppose.

I always feel there's a lot of guesswork and little certainty in this field.

There is a lot of disputed observation, that's certain. That's part of what made me so interested in that area of science. In my very strong opinion the key is looking not just at behaviours but also physiology or sometimes anatomy to help piece together what is always an interesting puzzle...even the behaviour we see as standard can be fascinating when we challenge it with a study, and designing such research is really hard. E.g. The standard stressor for horses is exercise......but I have argued many a time this cannot be a standards stressor...because horses have different experience to combine wand impact on the physiological impact and while its the best we have its taken too much as face value.

Cats and noise is amazing. I love watching pink whistles walk through the yard. She is a fiersome silent hunter, but when she walks through the yard she issues a loud siren call. I feel (dangerous unscientific anthropomorphism ) she is saying to the horses...don't step on me, I am here, but to the chickens, I am not going to kill you...just passing through......'

Some dogs are silent hunters, E.g. Dog dog barks as a guard, but points...when she points she is silent. When she goes to chase a bird innthe field she might bark, but as often she is just off. big dog never barks when killing a chicken,,,,,,silent and stealthy...but why...her behaviour or her fear i will learn before she has done it....Packs of hounds are very, very far from silent. Terriers seem a noisy bunch, but are quieter often when working IME.

Spirit_2

lostinrates wrote: »

(btw, they like poultry poo to roll in too I fine, and hedge hog...pretty much anything). .

Ben thinks this is delicious too. He is very lucky that we have a number of free range dispensers who make him a supply in the garden.

If we ever have a NP meet up which is held here, take my advice and do not let him lick you.

lostinrates

Spirit wrote: »

When DD was small and out on "Spirit" we used to go past a lovely field...but sometimes it was full of Ostriches.

It was then a nightmare as pony exercised her right to be scared witless. She could go backwards very fast, snort like a dragon, make herself grow or shrink, go sideways into hedges.

For a parent taking the reigns and making soothing sounds and coaxing to "walk on" she would show her gratitude by pulling your arms out. This was deifinitely a blue job and a route only to be tackled when my OH (who is the horsey parent) was about.

Ostriches are not peaceful creatures.

The fields of Llama's were generally OK.

Special girl was terrified of llamas. It was one of the most horrific bolts I have ever sat on, when passing a llama field. She was fine with sheep till they were in fields higher than the road/track level. When they were, she assured me , killers and after us.

neverdespairgirl

lostinrates wrote: »

Ethics on performing natural behaviours are challenged more when the house is so cold and no hot water. Fwiw, a cold bath outside on a cold day stops it for weeks but is exceptionally horrid for both her and me.....I cannot argue it is a great welfare decision.

That whole post was fascinating, thank you!

Doglet gets hosed down with cold water when he's covered in dog poo. However, that's not a dodgy ethical decision - he's a border collie, he adores water, and quite happily swims in ponds with a rim of ice round them. He likes the hose, too.

lostinrates

Btw....anyone interested in animal behaviour...there are some fantastic books in the mainstream availability...and some rubbish ones. There was a nice one recently...called in defence of the dog. But I really like Stephen budianski's books, and often gift them. An animal lover and a scientific journalist his presentation of conclusions is not always in accord with mine, but is never the less pretty wonderful stuff IMO. There are a few others I would recommend (temple grandin) but budianski in some form is the animal related gift I give most often.

Edit...cannot remember how many but there is at least one respectively for cats, dogs and horses (two horse ones I think....cannot remember ATM....) and a general one. I just cannot remember details ATM, apologies. Strike of the broken brain.
The nature of horses is a horse one, obviously. An amazon search by author for that title will surely bring the others up.

Spirit_2

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

I'm a fan of our nasty cold slate floor and granite worktops - but they aren't slippery.

When we moved in we had a horrible dated cheap tiled kitchen floor. I couldn't wait for it to go. 18 years later it is still there and I would happily swap it for slate.

Our worktops are beech. Not enough of them and 'scruffy'. Granit would be good too.

I cannot think of anything to commend the look of ,and storage in, our kitchen but it does feel homely. As I said "scruffy".