Understanding Section 75 in my situation

Icey370

Hi all,

I had recently purchased two fairly expensive dell XPS 15 laptops (16 Dec 2012 and 4 Feb 2013) and both arrived faulty.

I called dell and I had them send me a replace ment for both (first one shipped on 31 Dec 2012, second shipped 13 Feb 2013).

The one that was shipped on the 31st of December soon arrived and i quickly checked it for obvious faults, none were found.

The second soon arrived after the shipping date of 13 Feb 2013. However, upon opening it the bottom metal plate fell off and I noticed the touchpad was a bit jiggled a bit. My mate fixed the bottom plate by just bending some clips; however there was nothing we could do about the trackpad (didnt have the time to order another replacement as laptop was needed ASAP at the time)



Anyways, it's been a short while using them and the first laptop has developed a common fault (so atleast online forums state!). The wireless card seems to spike and get VERY slow! Slower than 56k modem speed!

The second laptop has become very irritating with the touchpad now (so far network is okay)

Anyways, I contacted dell and there will be a technician arriving tomorrow to attempt to fix the problems on both laptops. I heave done a lot of research and I doubt the first laptop will be fixed with the way they want to go about it. The second one will probably be fixed.



My question is, if the technician CAN'T fix the problem with the first laptop and I open a dispute with my CC company, is it likely to be accepted? Or will I be stuck with technician after technician coming to my house trying every possible method to remedy the problem?

And if they fix the other laptops touchpad (but not to a satisfactory standard) can i also claim section 75 for this too?

I know il have to return the laptops if claims are successful, but that I don't mind! what I do mind is paying all this money for "premium" items which fall below average standards of everyday cheaper laptops!

I hope this all makes sense, and please don't hesitate to ask for any clarification.

Regards,
Icey370

chattychappy

S75 makes the CC company jointly liable with Dell. So whatever rights you might have against Dell you also have against the CC.

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) gives you a number of rights - eg fitness for purpose, free from defect etc. If these conditions are breached, you have a right to reject (rescind) the contract and insist on a refund. The problem is that you lose this right if you accept the goods, in which case you are entitled to damages only (which could be difficult to quantify).

I think you should decide quickly. Personally I'd return the goods and require Dell to refund. If they refuse to accept them back/refuse to refund, then I'd contact the CC company. The law doesn't require you to exhaust your remedies with the merchant before going to the CC, but practically this is probably the best way. Ultimately you might have to go the small claim route (or FOS). A deduction might be due in respect of any valuable use you've had out of them.

Icey370

chattychappy wrote: »

S75 makes the CC company jointly liable with Dell. So whatever rights you might have against Dell you also have against the CC.

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) gives you a number of rights - eg fitness for purpose, free from defect etc. If these conditions are breached, you have a right to reject (rescind) the contract and insist on a refund. The problem is that you lose this right if you accept the goods, in which case you are entitled to damages only (which could be difficult to quantify).

I think you should decide quickly. Personally I'd return the goods and require Dell to refund. If they refuse to accept them back/refuse to refund, then I'd contact the CC company. The law doesn't require you to exhaust your remedies with the merchant before going to the CC, but practically this is probably the best way. Ultimately you might have to go the small claim route (or FOS). A deduction might be due in respect of any valuable use you've had out of them.

Thank you very much for you input, it's been most helpful. I will have to think on what youv said and take action tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Icey370

Icey370

Is just occurred to me, hope you can help with this too.

Both laptops have had some pricey software put on them (limited distribution by license usage); if I were to get the opportunity to return the laptops, would I be able to claim these expenses back from Dell or the credit card company? Or would it be a case of my loss?

Thanks,
Icey370

dalesrider

You do not need S75 in this case as there are chargebacks avaiable in the 1st instance. That is the route the CC co will take.

chanz4

Not very normal that x2 laptops develop faults, I wouldnt mention your friend played with them as it voids the warranty

withabix

Icey370 wrote: »

Both laptops have had some pricey software put on them (limited distribution by license usage); if I were to get the opportunity to return the laptops, would I be able to claim these expenses back from Dell or the credit card company? Or would it be a case of my loss?

You contact the software manufacturer via the Support section of their website and explain the situation.

They will usually reset the licence codes or send you new codes.

The credit card company are not liable for the software if this does not come to fruition, as the software was received by you and it does what it is supposed to.


As for the laptops, you have to give Dell sufficient opportunity to repair the laptops. It could be reasonable for this to be two attempts.

They haven't even arrived to repair them yet and you are looking at S75 ????

Also, do you use these laptops for business purposes?

chattychappy

Icey370 wrote: »

Both laptops have had some pricey software put on them (limited distribution by license usage); if I were to get the opportunity to return the laptops, would I be able to claim these expenses back from Dell or the credit card company? Or would it be a case of my loss?

If the terms of the licence mean that you can't get this refunded then this is a loss you would suffer... except that it's a loss incurred as a result of Dell's breach of contract on the laptops. So ultimately you could recover from Dell and S75 makes the CC jointly liable. These costs would have to be proportionate/reasonable. Claiming for £10K of a software for a £500 laptop probably wouldn't be unless Dell sold you the licence or they at least knew about it.

dalesrider wrote: »

You do not need S75 in this case as there are chargebacks avaiable in the 1st instance. That is the route the CC co will take.

It's S75 that gives the cardholder rights against the CC, not chargeback. In this case, the OP's claim might exceed the amount of the original transaction. Sure, the CC can use chargeback to recover through the network to mitigate their liability, that's up to them.

withabix wrote: »

They haven't even arrived to repair them yet and you are looking at S75 ????

I know what you mean, but the best time to look at S75 is before you make a purchase. Together with SOGA1979 and other legislation, it sets up the contract and the parties.

People often refer to "terms and conditions" without appreciating the difference. A breach of terms entitles the other party to damages. A breach of condition entitles you to damages or to rescind the contract (ie get a refund). SOGA implies certain terms into contracts and elevates some to conditions. Hence your right to return faulty goods to a shop and demand a refund whatever their signage might say.

BUT, you lose the right of rescission through passage of time. The law is not precise about how long you've got. But once you know the goods are faulty, if you can continue with the contract then you become stuck with it. (Still entitled to damages, warranty claims etc.)

So in my case, if I have faulty goods, I always demand a refund. It seems reasonable to allow the seller to have a go at fixing things or even have a go yourself. But by delaying you do jeopardise your refund rights. (In theory you could agree with the seller that by letting them have a go at fixing things you don't lose your refund rights but that might not be practical when dealing with a big company.)

The OP has had one laptop for 3 months already. I wouldn't delay any longer in deciding on whether to reject the laptops.

Icey370

dalesrider wrote: »

You do not need S75 in this case as there are chargebacks avaiable in the 1st instance. That is the route the CC co will take.

Okay, thanks for the info, don't know too much about how credit cards work, I just kind of know that my credit card will help protect my purchases

chanz4 wrote: »

Not very normal that x2 laptops develop faults, I wouldnt mention your friend played with them as it voids the warranty

It was just a clip that wasn't bent right (a bottom plate, didnt need to open the laptop at all) but I know what your getting at, will definitely not be saying anything like that

withabix wrote: »

You contact the software manufacturer via the Support section of their website and explain the situation.

They will usually reset the licence codes or send you new codes.

The credit card company are not liable for the software if this does not come to fruition, as the software was received by you and it does what it is supposed to.


As for the laptops, you have to give Dell sufficient opportunity to repair the laptops. It could be reasonable for this to be two attempts.

They haven't even arrived to repair them yet and you are looking at S75 ????

Also, do you use these laptops for business purposes?

Okay thanks, that was helpful yh was hoping these two new replacement laptops would be fault free, unfortunately not, just my luck

It was more of a pre-emptive thought looking into section 75 as so far Iv received 4 of these laptops from them (bought two, sent back two, two replacements received) and ALL have had a fault. Considering Iv spent over £2.4k on these laptops, I would just like to make sure of my rights as I don't want it all to go down the drain

Luckily for me, one of them has been fixed now, the technician decided to try a different fix than the one recommended by Dell, unfortunately it didnt work, so il be having a technician sometime next week

To answer your question, They will be used for personal use for a Postgraduate course.

chattychappy wrote: »

If the terms of the licence mean that you can't get this refunded then this is a loss you would suffer... except that it's a loss incurred as a result of Dell's breach of contract on the laptops. So ultimately you could recover from Dell and S75 makes the CC jointly liable. These costs would have to be proportionate/reasonable. Claiming for £10K of a software for a £500 laptop probably wouldn't be unless Dell sold you the licence or they at least knew about it.



It's S75 that gives the cardholder rights against the CC, not chargeback. In this case, the OP's claim might exceed the amount of the original transaction. Sure, the CC can use chargeback to recover through the network to mitigate their liability, that's up to them.



I know what you mean, but the best time to look at S75 is before you make a purchase. Together with SOGA1979 and other legislation, it sets up the contract and the parties.

People often refer to "terms and conditions" without appreciating the difference. A breach of terms entitles the other party to damages. A breach of condition entitles you to damages or to rescind the contract (ie get a refund). SOGA implies certain terms into contracts and elevates some to conditions. Hence your right to return faulty goods to a shop and demand a refund whatever their signage might say.

BUT, you lose the right of rescission through passage of time. The law is not precise about how long you've got. But once you know the goods are faulty, if you can continue with the contract then you become stuck with it. (Still entitled to damages, warranty claims etc.)

So in my case, if I have faulty goods, I always demand a refund. It seems reasonable to allow the seller to have a go at fixing things or even have a go yourself. But by delaying you do jeopardise your refund rights. (In theory you could agree with the seller that by letting them have a go at fixing things you don't lose your refund rights but that might not be practical when dealing with a big company.)

The OP has had one laptop for 3 months already. I wouldn't delay any longer in deciding on whether to reject the laptops.

Thanks very much (yet again) for your advice, it been very useful. Its good to know that the claim for software needs to be proportional to the laptop, Luckily the software I put on is nowhere near £10k, but the value on each laptop is probably slightly over £1k, a little short of the price of the laptop.

I did call the credit card company first (M&S) and I did specifically ask about the time limit, the guy said there was none. I asked several times and gave an example of 90 days, they still said there no limit.... Wich I'm skeptical about!

Fortunately one laptop has been fixed so that will be staying, but the other has a pretty bad problem and I did ask dell what they would do if the technician can't fix it, unfortunately all he said was that theyd have to go from there hopefully the technician will fix it next week, otherwise il have to try and persuade dell to send another replacement laptop (will be the 3rd replacement, 5th laptop sent to me in total) and if not, il try claiming from the credit card company!



Thanks you all for your help, it's most appreciated

dalesrider

Icey370 wrote: »

I did call the credit card company first (M&S) and I did specifically ask about the time limit, the guy said there was none. I asked several times and gave an example of 90 days, they still said there no limit.... Wich I'm skeptical about!

Thanks you all for your help, it's most appreciated

Time limit for a visa chargeback is 120 days from date of debit.

S75 is in effect 6 years.

chanz4

whats the machine actually doing, dell can get around faults by replacing the main board easier enough