Appealing the Bedroom Tax

angrybuffalo

iluvmarmite wrote: »

if you appeal it will go to the relevant department who will say unless you fall into one of the exempt categories then there are no grounds for appeal as they are just doing what the government tells them to do.

A local authority cannot lawfully dispose of an appeal in this way - but I suggest appealing on human rights grounds, citing Article 1 of Protocol 1 and Article 8.

daimonde

fluffymovie wrote: »

As someone who works in HB, I am not sure what this letter will achieve.

In almost all LAs, we have already calculated the award from 01.04.2013 and will start to pay the reduced HB. Whilst we could write back and say "your tenancy says you are in a 3 bed house so therefore a 14% or 25% reduction applies as per ..... " I am not sure what else this achieves?

As regards the system itself, we are already low on staff as we have a skills drain with the imminent arrival of Universal Credit and replying to such letters will, in some LA's, prevent us actually assessing claims from people in the first place?

Have I missed something?

Fluffy raises a very important point with UC on its way. My HB dept have lost over 25% of our staff in the last 2years and they wont and cant be replaced (and our workload is growing). However as UC arrives there will be less and less for these staff to do - and we're an LA with a UC pilot. Its a tough balancing act right now.

Going back on topic, if we received a letter like this in to our HB team, it would be passed to a senior officer as your average processor wouldnt want to or know how to respond. You wouldnt get the reply in the time scales requested, it would likely be the same person who should be looking at DHPs and appeals who would reply. Its not actually going to help anyone in my opinion.

We dont know whats going on with the recent u-turns, we dont know how we're going to pay those claim affected, we dont make the rules, we just try to interpret them as best we can.

If people want to make a change, then your MP is probably a better starting point than your Council for the 'bedroom tax'.

Thomas_Hardy

angrybuffalo wrote: »

A local authority cannot lawfully dispose of an appeal in this way - but I suggest appealing on human rights grounds, citing Article 1 of Protocol 1 and Article 8.

You might want to read the Articles before suggesting they would support an appeal - the two you have quoted do the opposite.

Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.
The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair
the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary
to control the use of property in accordance with the general
interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions
or penalties.

Three points here:

A council house is not the property of the tenant.

The right to peaceful enjoyment comes under the tort of nuisance. Nothing the local authority is doing would be contrary to this.

Even if the provision was found to be applicable, the protocol gives an exception whereby the state can deny the right where it is in the general interest (which the under occupancy charge is), and in order to secure payment of taxes and other contributions.

Summary: this Article confirms the authority's ability to apply the under occupancy charge.

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family
life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the
exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the
law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of
national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the
country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection
of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms
of others.

No one is denying a claimant the right to family life. They are allowed sufficient bedrooms to house their family.

Again, an exception is given where a measure is for the economic well being of the country, which is the main motivation behind the under occupancy charge.

Summary: another epic fail

harveybobbles

Thomas_Hardy wrote: »

It doesn't work like that. It is up to the LA to decide how many bedrooms you have, and whilst some are referring to the tenancy agreement, others are looking at how many rooms are available to be used as bedrooms. This means that dining rooms and second living rooms may also be counted for this purpose (and rightly so).

The local council would have already decided how many bedrooms the property had when they had them built from plans and typed and printed the tenancy.

I'm not sure how a dining room could be counted as a bedroom. Why dont they go the whole hog and say say that the kitchen could be a bedroom. And the hall. And the landing. and maybe the garden shed too.

Madness.

If the tenancy agreenment says the place you live is a two bedroom dwelling, then to me that means its a two bedroom dwelling. End of.

Thomas_Hardy

harveybobbles wrote: »

The local council would have already decided how many bedrooms the property had when they had them built from plans and typed and printed the tenancy.

I'm not sure how a dining room could be counted as a bedroom. Why dont they go the whole hog and say say that the kitchen could be a bedroom. And the hall. And the landing. and maybe the garden shed too.

Madness.

If the tenancy agreenment says the place you live is a two bedroom dwelling, then to me that means its a two bedroom dwelling. End of.

It's a good job you don't make the rules then

Times change, as do housing needs. Does anyone need a dining room? Unlike a kitchen or hallway, a dining room has no real purpose any more.

harveybobbles

Thomas_Hardy wrote: »

It's a good job you don't make the rules then

Times change, as do housing needs. Does anyone need a dining room? Unlike a kitchen or hallway, a dining room has no real purpose any more.

Call me old fashioned but I like to sit at the dining table to eat.

Thomas_Hardy

harveybobbles wrote: »

Call me old fashioned but I like to sit at the dining table to eat.

But you don't need to, or you could put a dining table in the kitchen or the lounge ... or indeed, in the hallway

mysterywoman10

People have the right of appeal that is the law and it is up to the Judge to decide the outcome.

harveybobbles

Thomas_Hardy wrote: »

But you don't need to, or you could put a dining table in the kitchen or the lounge ... or indeed, in the hallway

I'd like to see that happen.

How would someone like my MIL who is heavily disabled, move a dining table into her living room. It couldnt stay there and be a permanent feature as she needs to be able to wheel her chair around.

I don't see how a dining room could be used for anything other than dining/sitting.

You could go on to say you dont need a kitchen - you could put the fridge in a cupboard in the bedroom, the freezer in the shed, wouldnt need a cooker as you could, in theory have ping meals every day, so you could have a microwave next to the tv, cuttlery could be kept in the magazine rack, buy paper plates as and when needed.

Wonder how long it will be before the Brits are seeking asylum in other countires...

Thomas_Hardy

mysterywoman10 wrote: »

People have the right of appeal that is the law and it is up to the Judge to decide the outcome.

Please point out where anyone has suggested otherwise? No one has been discouraged from appealing - this thread has helpfully explained grounds that would not make for a valid appeal.