Kingston Communications Customers living in Hull

bbb_uk

This thread is for anyone who is based in Hull and uses Kingston Communications (alternative to BT) as their telephone provider.

I've just read on OFCOM's website that Kingston Communications customers (who live in Hull only) and BT customers are the only companies that have to provide access to all alternative telephone companies like Call18866, OneTel, TalkTalk, etc.

Therefore, if you live in Hull and Kingston Communications is your telephone provider then you too can take advantage of the great deals, prices, etc that BT customers currently do.

For more info on this (and Carrier Pre-Selection - CPS), click here.

There are several threads to help you choose, see MSE Martin's Cheapest Home Phone Calls Provider article. If you wish to discuss things then visit Cheapest Home Phones Provider discussion area.

NB: Only BT & Kingston Communication customers (providing you are living in Hull) can choose to use alternative telephone providers for their outgoing calls.

If you are on cable or pay your line rental to anyone else it is entirely upto that telephone provider if they wish to allow access to these companies. If this is you, you can still benefit from cheaper calls by using the likes of Call1899/Call18866 but you will have to dial their (Call1899/Call18866) freephone number first.

kevinbev

I live outside Hull but am presently with Kingston only because I wanted broadband and BT were not enabling the Leven exchange until end of last year. I contacted a few of these companies that run the cps system and they said that as I had gone over to Kingston then they could not offer the service. I did however find out on these forums about 18866 and signed up with them, but even on 18866 my calls are charged at half pence per min for UK landlines whilst if I was on BT then I would just pay the 2p connection charge. Anyway, come the summer unless Kingston reduce the cost of their broadband service and increase the speed then I will be going back with BT. On the only good side about Kingston is that it is only £7.50 a month line rental for the phone and with that you get caller display and anr included. I notice on the OFCOM document that it is dated 2002. Could be that Kingston is difficult to deal with as I seem to recall that AOL had to review its service to Kingston customers due to some dispute in which AOL customers had their service capped about 3 years ago.

April2

kevinbev wrote:

I did however find out on these forums about 18866 and signed up with them, but even on 18866 my calls are charged at half pence per min for UK landlines whilst if I was on BT then I would just pay the 2p connection charge.

Go to 1899 - 3p connection and 0p/minute even though you'll have to use their 0808 number.

bbb_uk

kevinbev wrote:

....I notice on the OFCOM document that it is dated 2002. Could be that Kingston is difficult to deal with as I seem to recall that AOL had to review its service to Kingston customers due to some dispute in which AOL customers had their service capped about 3 years ago.

Oftel (before it became OFCOM) introduced CPS this is reason why its dated 2002. I have just rung Ofcom and they did state that Kingston Communication customers living in Hull (just Hull) have to provide access to CPS companies, etc same as BT do.

You, unfortunately, live outside Hull so therefore they are not obliged to provide access to these companies. If you use Call1899 like suggested in April's post, you can still benefit from both cheaper line rental and cheaper calls but you can't use CPS.

Although, as most people think its just BT that have to provide access (I did until I read that document), then even if you did live within Hull, you could still have problems convincing companies like OneTel, TalkTalk that you can use them especially if they are only aware of BT having to provide access. I could be wrong on this and both OneTel & TalkTalk may be aware that Kingston Communication customers (living in the Hull) can use their CPS system.

April2

bbb_uk wrote:

Although, as most people think its just BT that have to provide access (I did until I read that document), then even if you did live within Hull, you could still have problems convincing companies like OneTel, TalkTalk that you can use them especially if they are only aware of BT having to provide access. I could be wrong on this and both OneTel & TalkTalk may be aware that Kingston Communication customers (living in the Hull) can use their CPS system.

I think Paul Varjak has made sure OneTel are aware!

EDIT 0947 16/4/05

And, as I thought he would, Paul arrived (see below) to clarify my statement ........

bbb_uk

April2 wrote:

I think Paul Varjak has made sure OneTel are aware!

April, do you know if this was posted as before posting this I did search whole forum and only found 1 occurence of the the search phrase 'Kingston Communication' which mentioned nothing about using CPS with Kingston?

Thanks

Paul_Varjak

April2 wrote:

I think Paul Varjak has made sure OneTel are aware!

I am sure OneTel will be aware that they can offer services in Hull; it is just that none of the companies offering CPS (or line rental) seem to want to offer their services in the Hull area. I suspect that OFCOM would require them to offer their services at the same price to Kingston customers as they do to BT customers.

At one time, Kingston did offer short coded access to override services - Cable & Wireless (13) BT (12) and Torch (138) but this ceased a few years ago. Torch was actually owned by Kingston but offered cheaper prices, but when Kingston reduced their prices Torch seemingly became redundant and Kingston stopped the other short code access numbers as well.

As far as I know, there are no short code override services Kingston customers can use now. So given that no telco has a current arrangement to even allow that access it seems doubtful that any telco will offer CPS, let alone line rental within the traditional Kingston area. This just leaves override services using freefone numbers and the likes of One-Tel boxes etc.

As April2 suggests, the best override seems to be 1899 as there is no per minute charge on national calls, charges are just 3p/call. This beats Kingston's minimum price of a call (6.46p) by quite a margin and kingston has time-based charges an top of that for all but local numbers. Of course, you can use 1899 VOIP and get your national calls completely free with 1899 (but not with 18866).

It is probably worth pointing out that Kingston's 'historic' area not only includes Hull but some surrounding villages and towns as well (up to about 12 miles from Hull). It is this area where Kingston is governed by the same rules as BT in offering CPS, line rental. But, in recent years, Kingston has gone outside its historic area and into 'BT' territory (Leven in the example quoted earler, Market Weighton is another). In these areas I do not think Kingston are bound by those rules but BT are.

kevinbev

Thanks April2. Seen this 1899 before but not taken too much notice as I am with 18866. Anyway after reading up have now signed up. Cannot complain about the call costs at all now, only the cost of the broadband. Now will have to re-program the phones.

bunking_off

Paul's correct.

The regulatory requirement to provide indirect access (access to 18866 etc) and carrier preselection applies only to operators that have Significant Market Power (SMP) status. In brief, this is BT for most of the UK, and Kingston within their "traditional" area....for regulatory reasons ISTR internally they refer to the networks quite separately as the "Hull" and "national" networks.

To understand the logic behind this one must understand what the role of Ofcom (and before them Oftel) is. Basically, they're there to act as a proxy for competition where it wouldn't be sustainable. Therefore, as BT dominate the market for provision of copper lines to houses, they have the conditions put on them to allow customers to use other networks so that BT's dominance in line provision need not mean that they dominate in the provision of calls. The same applies to Kingston in Hull.

Other operators don't have such conditions placed on them, because ultimately if you're with e.g. Telewest and want to use Onetel, you always have the option of moving to BT where you can get access (clearly the reverse isn't always the case).

Similarly, Onetel etc have no conditions placed on them so that they must provide ubiquitous access. So, whether or not they provide access from Kingston is very much down to whether they view the profits they can accrue as being sufficient to justify the hassle of negotiating interconnection with Kingston.

Think of it this way - if you started a business manufacturing widgets and were one of many manufacturers, whether you supplied every widget shop or just ones that are convenient to you would be your own decision, not one imposed by some regulator. The same applies in telecoms for non-SMP operators, the only difference being that there are some safeguard regulations, e.g. you must publish tariffs etc.

bbb_uk

Thanks Paul & Bunking Off,

Going by your posts, although it seems Kingston Customers living in Hull can use CPS, it does not necessary mean they can use the likes of OneTel, etc due to OneTel not wanting to provide access to those people in Hull (like you said due to costs and all the messing around).

To me it seems stupid that Oftel (OFCOM now), forced Kingston Communications to open their network to the likes of CPS and other indirect access codes but placed no constraints on the likes of OneTel, Call18866, etc to allow Kingston Communications customers living in Hull to use their service.

This opening up of the network was to allow us customers more choice but at the same time because they can't "force" the likes of OneTel, Call18866 to allow Kingston customers access to their own network defeats the point of forcing Kingston to open their network to other providers in the first place.

I guess that's just the way it is. I do agree that Call1899 is cheapest option for those with non-BT lines.

We're with BT and this post was just to inform Kingston customers living in hull that they Kingston have to allow access to other providers like OneTel, etc but didn't realise that from OneTel point of view it may not financially be worth it for them to do so.

bunking_off

bbb_uk

I'm not sure if OneTel etc do provide access from Kingston. If they don't, it will be an issue of scale : the size of the addressable market making the necessary negotiations/implementation too costly to be worthwhile. It's not that Kingston could price them out of the market - the amount that they would charge OneTel for originating the calls would be regulated, in the same way that BT are regulated on the same aspect (these fees are factored into the retail pricing, indeed typically dominate it).

I'd disagree with you about the need to compel OneTel to provide access. Returning to my analogy about widget manufacturing, I wouldn't be compelled to sell my widgets via every shop that could sell them, and would only sell via channels where I could make a profit. There's nothing special about telecoms, so no reason why any non-SMP operator should be compelled to sell if they don't feel they can make sufficient profit.

The protection in this situation, however, is via the regulation on retail pricing. Both Kingston & BT are forced to reduce their prices by RPI-X% per year (not sure what the current "X" is off-hand). These caps are set by the regulator based upon a defined rate of return by a telco using efficient technology. This at least stops customers being fleeced if they stick with the incumbent - they might not get the very best pricing, but at least won't be fleeced. The regulator walks a bit of a tightrope with this, because if e.g. BT's pricing was forced down too much, it would drive what competition there is out of the market.