Financial Protection in Early Dementia?

Errata

margaretclare wrote: »

She is well past the stage of 'being a bit forgetful' according to your description of her, above. Well past!

Why the comment? Luxor hasn't claimed her MIL is 'a bit forgetful'.

mumps

Fire_Fox wrote: »

You are erroneously paraphrasing, I said "may become elderly" not "is becoming elderly". I'm not separating them from everyone their age other than in the positive, I already said " I think of them all as being ten years younger than they really are, the seventy somethings are definitely not 'elderly' you know?"

When did I said or intimated anything about validity? Why on earth would I start this thread, and note that I was willing to relocate to support them if needs be? Since when did it become patronising to care about and for your own family members? Surely if I thought they were not valid I'd be all for moving them to a care home regardless of their own wishes?

Earlier in the thread I said that "I do believe [elderly is] a state of mind plus how you treat your body plus health you cannot control ... I don't have enough experience to speak for all but 'my' seniors ... it's based on a sort of average, not just the physical side (agility, energy) but very much mental outlook and open mindedness." which was on top of the chronological aspect of the descriptor (ten years younger).

And as regards 'a bit fragile' "The oldest of all of all my relatives of that generation feels unwell too often and is on a good deal of medication but at the same time is never home in the summer, still leads nature groups, is as bright as a button and would put younger people to shame."

Honestly I wish I'd never posted the thread. I can't believe I am not permitted to be proud of my older relatives, to want them to be able to maintain their activity and independence as long as possible as they want themselves without it being accused of being negative or patronising to another group.

I have never said it is patronising to care about your family. I find it patronising to want to find some PC way of describing aging. What is wrong with saying someone in their 70s is old? In no way does it mean or imply anything about the physical or mental abilities. Some young people have physical problems and some have mental health, these might get more frequent after a certain age but age does not define it.

I find statements like "put younger people to shame" "bright as a button" "I think of them all as being ten years younger than they really are, the seventy somethings are definitely not 'elderly' you know?" very patronising and "seniors" makes me want to vomit.

What has shame got to do with anything? I generally associate "bright as a button" as something you would say about a baby or toddler. They aren't ten years younger than they really are and 70s is old in my opinion. Maybe it is because I am the sort of person who likes to call a shovel a shovel not an earth moving implement but why not say someone is in good health, someone is enjoying life at 70 or whatever?

My uncle died last year, he had been ill for 2 or 3 years and was in his early 80s. His death certificate states he died of "frailty of old age" so I guess that indicates that we do get old at some point. I suppose some people are afraid of their own or their loved ones mortality and perhaps that makes them want to dance around age, I just think it is healthier to accept it and deal with it but I guess we are all different.

Fire_Fox

mumps wrote: »

I have never said it is patronising to care about your family. I find it patronising to want to find some PC way of describing aging. What is wrong with saying someone in their 70s is old? In no way does it mean or imply anything about the physical or mental abilities. Some young people have physical problems and some have mental health, these might get more frequent after a certain age but age does not define it.

I find statements like "put younger people to shame" "bright as a button" "I think of them all as being ten years younger than they really are, the seventy somethings are definitely not 'elderly' you know?" very patronising and "seniors" makes me want to vomit.

What has shame got to do with anything? I generally associate "bright as a button" as something you would say about a baby or toddler. They aren't ten years younger than they really are and 70s is old in my opinion. Maybe it is because I am the sort of person who likes to call a shovel a shovel not an earth moving implement but why not say someone is in good health, someone is enjoying life at 70 or whatever?

1. Again I said my relatives are not ELDERLY and that "I think of them all as being ten years younger", it was others who initiated the discussion on 'seniors' and 'old', please read the thread properly before putting your thought police uniform on. As already stated my understanding of 'elderly' comes from working in healthcare for over two decades.

2. I do not want to describe them in terms of their health, thank you, that would not convey what I think and what I want to say about my family. You don't know where I come from, you don't know my relatives intellect, medical history, education levels or personalities so you don't know what is appropriate way of describing them.
"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
http://www.who.int/about/definition/en/print.html

3. Stop misinterpreting my words and then getting offended on their behalf, is that not YOU being PC? I don't know any babies or toddlers nor do I like them to the point I am child free by choice. Guess what? So is the relative I am allegedly patronising, a major influence throughout my life and someone I aspire to be like in retirement. Again you don't know anything about my family dynamic.

Thanks to those who were supportive, helpful and non judgemental. :A

luxor4t

margaretclare wrote: »

She is well past the stage of 'being a bit forgetful' according to your description of her, above. Well past!

But in her mind she is only forgetful.

She insists that she is perfectly alright and that we are all making out there is something wrong with her when, in her mind, there isn't.

People often get to a stage when they cannot see the reality for their dreams or memories. I expect it will happen to me - and I'd expect my children to do the right thing and make sure I was safe, clean and looked after. And I've told them that - and having seen the state MiL is in, they've agreed.


Edit for clarity I do not expect my children to become my carers.Their instructions are to put themselves first and find a suitable caring establishment with a regular shift change so that nobody is stuck on the 24 hour a day cycle that nearly broke my parents trying to keep a grandmother at home, and is detroying BiL & SiL's health.

John_Pierpoint

Dementia is not the same as simple mindedness produced by a stroke.
We are not talking about someone reduced the the intellectual level of a 6 year old, but with four score years of experience.

For those who have had to cope with drunks, some drunks simply fall asleep, some decide they love the world and go to great effort to try to explain, however some become nasty drunks, ready to hit out at anything they perceive as responsible for the set backs in their lives.
Someone with dementia is entering a parallel world, where the people around them no longer respond within their perceptions of reality.

This is controversial, but successfully "handling" someone with dementia means accommodating your behaviour to their demented damaged brain's perception of reality; then keeping them happy in their own world. The realistic alternative is to drug them up to the eyeballs, in case they come after you with the bread knife.

Here is the controversial method of managing the demented, followed by the official criticism of the method.

From practical experience of two close relatives who spent their last few years completely "away with the fairies" at times, using the "contented dementia" technique (no matter how much it "goes against the grain" of one's normal behaviour and feels like some Orwellian thought control) enables the dementia sufferer to remain in her own home, knowing where she is, in the care of her family (both relatives were female).

If you think the sufferer will get better care in a home employing NMW front line staff, then I will beg to disagree with you.
However good the "hotel" services, the staff cannot know all the memories stored up in the bit of the brain that still functions almost rationally.

http://www.contenteddementiatrust.org/specal-method/three-golden-rules/

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=674&pageNumber=8

[NMW : National Minimum Wage]

moneyistooshorttomention

luxor4t wrote: »

But in her mind she is only forgetful.

She insists that she is perfectly alright and that we are all making out there is something wrong with her when, in her mind, there isn't.

People often get to a stage when they cannot see the reality for their dreams or memories. I expect it will happen to me - and I'd expect my children to do the right thing and make sure I was safe, clean and looked after. And I've told them that - and having seen the state MiL is in, they've agreed.

From what I've seen to date, people vary in how perceptive they are about their own mental state. I was somewhat surprised recently by finding that, in the course of us all just having a social chat, that a couple of people I had only recently met were openly stating words to the effect of they believed they had got early dementia (said in a totally matter of fact sort of way and apparently accepted by them). So I guess some people are realistic about their own mental state and others delude themselves that they are just a bit forgetful/its just them/etc or try and make out they havent changed a bit (ie its apparently YOU that have changed:cool:).

That was actually quite heartening to hear this couple of recent acquaintances admit to it so openly and then go onto the next stage of just having a social conversation. It made me think that it really must be possible for someone to realise this is happening to them early on (and make whatever arrangements they wish to make to deal with it) if they are a person that is honest with themselves (rather than attempting to pull the wool over their OWN eyes and blind themselves to it until its too late).

moneyistooshorttomention

John Pierpoint

- read your contented dementia link and I tend to agree thats probably a good road to go down in dealing with things like this on the one hand

- on the other hand - it must take a pretty special sort of person to be able to deal with a sufferer that way. I can think of people who could do that, but I know I personally couldnt - as I'm very truthful with myself and ask a lot of questions about how things are/whats happened/etc and expect clear, straightforward answers back and will "answer back" and try and correct things if I know someone is wrong. So I've simply not got the temperament to roll over and quietly agree that "black is white" when I can see it obviously isnt.

So I can only say that people who can manage to say "yes...of course black is white" and "yes...the dog is asleep (rather than dead) are to be admired for being able to. But I doubt there are many who are capable of it...

mumps

Fire_Fox wrote: »

1. Again I said my relatives are not ELDERLY and that "I think of them all as being ten years younger", it was others who initiated the discussion on 'seniors' and 'old', please read the thread properly before putting your thought police uniform on. As already stated my understanding of 'elderly' comes from working in healthcare for over two decades.

2. I do not want to describe them in terms of their health, thank you, that would not convey what I think and what I want to say about my family. You don't know where I come from, you don't know my relatives intellect, medical history, education levels or personalities so you don't know what is appropriate way of describing them.
"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
http://www.who.int/about/definition/en/print.html

3. Stop misinterpreting my words and then getting offended on their behalf, is that not YOU being PC? I don't know any babies or toddlers nor do I like them to the point I am child free by choice. Guess what? So is the relative I am allegedly patronising, a major influence throughout my life and someone I aspire to be like in retirement. Again you don't know anything about my family dynamic.

Thanks to those who were supportive, helpful and non judgemental. :A

This is a public forum and I am just as entitled to comment as you. As someone reaching 60 this year I recognise that not many years ago I would have achieved OAP status this year, the age has changed and now it is SRP. Just like some people come on here and say "I don't want to be described as elderly" I am equally free to say I would rather people described me as old when I reach 60, that is what people have done for most of my life.

Just to reassure you I am not PC in the slightest, my husband is black, we are hitting old age nothing PC or patronising about me.

I don't know your family but I honestly don't see what difference their education, intellect etc has to do with it and I am sorry if it annoys you but it again comes across as you making judgements about people. Is someone born on the same day as one of your relatives older because of their education? No they are not they are exactly the same age, they might be healthier or not, they might be more or less enthusiastic about travel or music or literature but that is up to them it does not make one 70 year old old, another elderly and a third senior.

If you don't like babies it doesn't mean you have never heard comments like "bright as a button" being used in reference to a young child. I have never heard it used about an adult and I think it is patronising. I don't know what your role in healthcare is but I am a manager in healthcare and train and recruit staff, if you used that sort of language about service users in the setting I work in it would be considered patronising and you would receive further training in respect and dignity. If that sort of language was used directly to a service user it could even be considered abusive.

I don't understand what is so significant about your relative sharing your childfree choice, is that some big deal?

You are ignoring most of what I have said and latching on to some small parts. You don't respond to things like where shame comes into it or the reality that they are their ages whatever you think.

I have read the thread but I am leaving now, I only hope that everyone who works with older adults treats them as adults not children.

mumps

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Dementia is not the same as simple mindedness produced by a stroke.
We are not talking about someone reduced the the intellectual level of a 6 year old, but with four score years of experience.

For those who have had to cope with drunks, some drunks simply fall asleep, some decide they love the world and go to great effort to try to explain, however some become nasty drunks, ready to hit out at anything they perceive as responsible for the set backs in their lives.
Someone with dementia is entering a parallel world, where the people around them no longer respond within their perceptions of reality.

This is controversial, but successfully "handling" someone with dementia means accommodating your behaviour to their demented damaged brain's perception of reality; then keeping them happy in their own world. The realistic alternative is to drug them up to the eyeballs, in case they come after you with the bread knife.

Here is the controversial method of managing the demented, followed by the official criticism of the method.

From practical experience of two close relatives who spent their last few years completely "away with the fairies" at times, using the "contented dementia" technique (no matter how much it "goes against the grain" of one's normal behaviour and feels like some Orwellian thought control) enables the dementia sufferer to remain in her own home, knowing where she is, in the care of her family (both relatives were female).

If you think the sufferer will get better care in a home employing NMW front line staff, then I will beg to disagree with you.
However good the "hotel" services, the staff cannot know all the memories stored up in the bit of the brain that still functions almost rationally.

http://www.contenteddementiatrust.org/specal-method/three-golden-rules/

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=674&pageNumber=8

[NMW : National Minimum Wage]

I agree with much you say but dementia is a very broad term. For some families a good home can be the best solution. There are some really fantastic carers, although I do hope they are earning more than NMW as they certainly deserve it.

moneyistooshorttomention

On that thought - and I certainly have a lot of sympathy with any of the carers I've ever talked to - hence my own personal decision long ago never to be one.

I've come across:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Selfish-Pigs-Guide-Caring/dp/0749929863/ref=cm_rdp_product

I've been scouting round and round the Net in astonishment at how big a taboo there seems to be about admitting that you don't want to be a carer. As for admitting you won't be a carer...:eek: