Heating water using electricity, and panel heaters (No CH)

MrBrindle

Hi, my first post here, and I know there are loads of information around regarding heating hot water on here, but most of it seems in conjunction with a fully fitted central heating system - which is not what we need.

Me and my partner got the keys to our first house mid week, and we're in the middle of gutting and renovating now. The house is a pretty small mid terrace, 2 beds up, and an open plan living room / kitchen downstairs, plus bathroom. It's nearly 100 years old with solid stone walls, and pretty poor insulation which we aim to improve. There is a woodburner in the living room which will probably provide most of the heat for downstairs and some upstairs.

Our main issue is sorting out the hot water and other heating upstairs. There isn't a gas supply, and we're not sure if we can afford the installation of an oil / lpg tank, plus it's a mid terrace so access to refill the tanks might be awkward.

At the moment, we are thinking of being on an economy 10 tariff (on 7 at the moment) and having panel / filled oil radiators as the extra heating. But, we are struggling to get an idea of what will be the best method of heating water. At the moment theres a tiny 'on demand' immersion which in no way provides enough hot water. Any idea what would be the best way to provide hot water on economy 10? Combi boiler? Bigger immersion? Cylinder?

Thanks in advance

fishybusiness

Do you have room for a hot water tank?

You could use that in conjunction with a timer to heat it through the night on cheap rate electricity.

MrBrindle

Yeah, we have large built in storage wardrobes in the main bedroom, and we have toyed with the idea of installing a hot water tank in there so it serves like an airing cupboard as well. But would this be any good using economy 10?

Here are the stats for our economy 10 tariff if we choose to go with it:

Hours: 0000 - 0500, 1300 - 1600 & 2000 - 2200.

Prices
26.10 pence/day standing charge
16.95 pence/kwh peak energy
8.57 pence/kwh off peak energy

I'm guessing you can programme the system so the hot water tank heats only during these hours? Or would the tank be capable of storing the water hot long enough from just one period of charging? Say if the tank fully heats up from 00:00 - 05:00, would it be warm enough for showers / washing after coming home from work after 18:00pm?

penrhyn

You could look into modern storage heaters to run on E7.
For showering I'd have thought an instant electric shower is the way to go. Use your stored hot water for general washing. Most washing machines are cold fill only these days.

MrBrindle

We have been looking at storage heaters as well. But read some stuff here and online that their not very good in badly insulated houses, is this true? I'm quite interested in SEE / Dimplex's new quantum heating system. I can't post the link here but if you google it up. It's fairly new so there's not much reviews on it.

penrhyn

http://www.quantumheating.co.uk/index.php

Interesting, good to see some development in storage heaters.

Richie-from-the-Boro

MrBrindle wrote: »

Yeah, we have large built in storage wardrobes in the main bedroom, and we have toyed with the idea of installing a hot water tank in there so it serves like an airing cupboard as well. But would this be any good using economy 10?

~ ~ snip ~ ~

I'm guessing you can programme the system so the hot water tank heats only during these hours? Or would the tank be capable of storing the water hot long enough from just one period of charging? Say if the tank fully heats up from 00:00 - 05:00, would it be warm enough for showers / washing after coming home from work after 18:00pm?

- you are missing the point, you 'programme' nothing, it programmes and decided for you
- E10 is the posh expensive end of E7, you decide what you want and what you pay for
- E7 & E10 use PartL insulation on the water cylinder, this enables it to 'lose less' heat, keeping the water hot longer
- domestic direct PartL cylinders run from 100 to 300 litres, you decide what you want and what you pay for
- as penrhyn says I'd have an electric shower regardless, cheap as chips and easy to replace
- "not very good in badly insulated houses", you got that right neither is wood, oil, coal, quantum or anything else

I have a lot of time for Dimplex as a company, they use rather than talk innovation particularly in terms of the ever useful insulation. Having said that they use nano-blankets as an insulator on only one of their many many space heating products when they could use it on all of them. Adding and extra £x to a product range however would make them uncompetitive with their rivals and reduce the money available for R&D.

On the whole subject of the Quantum initiative, In general I'd like details of the thermal insulators on both the storage tins and the water vessel. In particular I'd like real evidence that the collaboration with SSE leads to evidence that the 3650 cheap hours that E10 already gives is exceeded by a very large margin giving a direct cost saving benefit to the householder and not just to the two very big energy players [sharing the synergy] mutual benefit.

If the bi-way hub delivers more actual off-peak from SSE rather than using on-peak 13a 'top up' ~ and ~ they fit their already developed nano-blankets in all of the tins I'll be impressed. Price dependant of course, it has to be directly compared against existing electric night store prices.

MrBrindle

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- you are missing the point, you 'programme' nothing, it programmes and decided for you
- E10 is the posh expensive end of E7, you decide what you want and what you pay for
- E7 & E10 use PartL insulation on the water cylinder, this enables it to 'lose less' heat, keeping the water hot longer
- domestic direct PartL cylinders run from 100 to 300 litres, you decide what you want and what you pay for
- as penrhyn says I'd have an electric shower regardless, cheap as chips and easy to replace
- "not very good in badly insulated houses", you got that right neither is wood, oil, coal, quantum or anything else

I have a lot of time for Dimplex as a company, they use rather than talk innovation particularly in terms of the ever useful insulation. Having said that they use nano-blankets as an insulator on only one of their many many space heating products when they could use it on all of them. Adding and extra £x to a product range however would make them uncompetitive with their rivals and reduce the money available for R&D.

On the whole subject of the Quantum initiative, In general I'd like details of the thermal insulators on both the storage tins and the water vessel. In particular I'd like real evidence that the collaboration with SSE leads to evidence that the 3650 cheap hours that E10 already gives is exceeded by a very large margin giving a direct cost saving benefit to the householder and not just to the two very big energy players [sharing the synergy] mutual benefit.

If the bi-way hub delivers more actual off-peak from SSE rather than using on-peak 13a 'top up' ~ and ~ they fit their already developed nano-blankets in all of the tins I'll be impressed. Price dependant of course, it has to be directly compared against existing electric night store prices.

So, in regards to the programming, the cylinder will always warm up during off peak hours? There is no control over timing or anything should you wish to use only one section of the economy 10 tariff?

The only thing with electric showers, they've always been pretty useless the ones I have used. Any recommendations of ones which have got decent power / water pressure?

Wywth

MrBrindle wrote: »

Hi, my first post here, and I know there are loads of information around regarding heating hot water on here, but most of it seems in conjunction with a fully fitted central heating system - which is not what we need.

Me and my partner got the keys to our first house mid week, and we're in the middle of gutting and renovating now. The house is a pretty small mid terrace, 2 beds up, and an open plan living room / kitchen downstairs, plus bathroom. It's nearly 100 years old with solid stone walls, and pretty poor insulation which we aim to improve. There is a woodburner in the living room which will probably provide most of the heat for downstairs and some upstairs.

Our main issue is sorting out the hot water and other heating upstairs. There isn't a gas supply, and we're not sure if we can afford the installation of an oil / lpg tank, plus it's a mid terrace so access to refill the tanks might be awkward.

At the moment, we are thinking of being on an economy 10 tariff (on 7 at the moment) and having panel / filled oil radiators as the extra heating. But, we are struggling to get an idea of what will be the best method of heating water. At the moment theres a tiny 'on demand' immersion which in no way provides enough hot water. Any idea what would be the best way to provide hot water on economy 10? Combi boiler? Bigger immersion? Cylinder?

Thanks in advance

I wouldn't think about Economy 10 unless you can convince yourself it really is the right option

Not many suppliers actually offer E10 to new applicants, and even if you do find one, you'll effectively be tied to them as any attempt to later change supplier whilst on E10 invariably ends in tears.

Stick with E7
(it'll also make it more appealing to buyers if/when you come to sell the property)

Richie-from-the-Boro

MrBrindle wrote: »

So, in regards to the programming, the cylinder will always warm up during off peak hours? There is no control over timing or anything should you wish to use only one section of the economy 10 tariff?

The only thing with electric showers, they've always been pretty useless the ones I have used. Any recommendations of ones which have got decent power / water pressure?

E10 or E7

- all .. .. the total of all you control, is OFF or ON and how HOT or NOT
- the meter you will have installed is switched by external radio signal, hence the name RTA
- radio operated time switches have a built in random time delay for GMT switching
- you switch the space heating on when it gets cold and off when you don't need 'central' heating
- you can do the same with the water heating, but unless to are away for a week or more, what's the point !

Shower

- electric showers, cost wise, are a no brainer, just the right amount you use each time, a no brainer
- one or a dozen people running out of the hot stuff, does'nt happen with electric showers, a no brainer
- the higher the kW rating the more able the shower is to deliver hot water in high volume in the winter
- a low kW shower will lose about 20% of its flow rate in the cold winter, you get what you pay for
- not many years ago a 10.5kW would cost £3-400, these days 100-£150, check fuse / cable ratings etc
- they are susceptible to limescale build-up, so get a a brand that has a long [er] guarantee period, such as Redring
- standard 15mm pipe should give a minimum of 0.7 bar, that's about eight litres per minute, but bigger pipe is is better pressure

Fire_Fox

MrBrindle wrote: »

The only thing with electric showers, they've always been pretty useless the ones I have used. Any recommendations of ones which have got decent power / water pressure?

The problem with a power shower is they use serious amounts of water and serious amounts of electricity, you could easily find you use more water per day than having deep fill baths.
"According to the study, the average eight-minute shower used 62 litres of hot water, and some power showers can use up to 136 litres, compared with an average bath's 80 litres ... Our own research shows that a 'waterwise shower' – getting the job done in four minutes under a water-efficient showerhead –uses just 32 litres."
http://www.waterwise.org.uk/news.php/11/showers-vs.-baths-facts-figures-and-misconceptions

If moneysaving is important to you, you might be best with a less powerful shower OR willingness to both have short showers (eg. partner use leave on conditioner, do beauty stuff out of the shower) OR turn the water off whilst soaping up and shaving.

If you do go the electric shower route and have a cold fill washing machine, you might ask yourself if it's worth having the main hot water on daily, you may not actually use much with a bit of washing up and washing hands. I have enough hot water for two to three days if I don't use my shower (shower elsewhere obviously! ). A properly insulated tank/ immersion keeps it's temperature well.