Power of attorney

lessonlearned

Money - my understanding is - no matter when the POA was completed it has to be registered before it becomes active and legally binding.

I would suggest that you double check this. You will find it very difficult without that piece of paper.

Re your mothers "nastiness". I am afraid a change of personality or in some case an increase or exaggeration of personality traits is unfortunately one of the effects of dementia.

My lovely gentle sweet natured mother who is now suffering from vascula dementia was always a little on the stubborn side when she put her mind to it. Now she is sadly becoming extremely stubborn, difficult and downright unreasonable.

She is still ok with me, but tbh there are times when she makes my poor father's task as her carer very difficult. She gets an idea into her head and nothing will shift it.

There is a new nastiness and selfishness that just wasn't there before. It isn't her, it's just her illness that has caused this personality change and it is so terribly sad.

At first my dad used to get very cross with her but now he has finally accepted that it is her illness that's causing her to be so obstructive and demanding he is finding it a little easier to cope with. He has learned to distance himself from any unpleasantness.

It might be helpful for you to read up a bit about dementia and to get some idea of how it affects not just the individual but also family members and carers.

One piece of advice my father has found very helpful is not to "nag" her, or argue the case - even though he is patently right and she is wrong.

It sounds a bit insulting but it's often best to humour them. The more you try to correct what they are saying or "put them right", or remind them that they have just told you something less than 10 minutes ago, then the more confused, distressed and agitated they become.

I don't think this is patronising, I think it's kinder. I find if we can keep mum's surroundings and the general atmosphere calm and peaceful it seems to help keep her mind clearer and helps keep her focussed.

Getting lost in a place she knew very well was one of the first symptoms my dad really noticed. Up until then he had been able to ignore her increasing forgetfulness but it really made him realise that all was not well.

I am sorry to hear that you are in this situation too. It is so desperately sad to see a parent disintegrate in this way. I look into my mother's eyes sometimes and she is just not there any more. She's already gone,. Sometimes she is fine.

moneyistooshorttomention

Thanks lessonlearned.

I'm still hoping that the odd blips are just that, ie odd blips and dont signify anything.

Obviously, most of us are very conscious about things like dementia and that will bring some of us into watching out more than we otherwise would and maybes these are just odd blips and a few decent nights sleep etc would sort things out for her and that would be the end of that.

Maybe, I'm just projecting my own fears that I think we all have at some level or other as to whether we ourselves might ever get it and worrying needlessly. That might be the case even for someone like myself who is watching her own mind as carefully and objectively as possible to be sure that I got a handle on it and dealt with it very firmly and quickly if ever it reared its ugly head with me.

Sorry to hear that you are experiencing this with your mother and hoping this goes as easily as something like that can for your family.

lessonlearned

I agree. The idea of me developing dementia scares the Bejesus out of me.

TBH I look at my mum and my OH and all the people in his nursing home and I think to myself - no way do I want this.

I've told my sons in no uncertain terms - it's one last final fling and then a one way ticket to Switzerland for me.;)

moneyistooshorttomention

LessonLearned - you mean that one of these fine days I might get chatting to the woman across the aisle from me in a plane and realise we were both heading for the same destination for the same reason?

I'll chat to anyone with a friendly face me...so...the first drink is on me in the unlikely event of that happening....and we can both turn up thoroughly sozzled:beer:

Savvy_Sue

lessonlearned wrote: »

Healthcare POA's are fairly recent. 2007 or 2009 - can't remember which.

2007, because we made one of the Enduring kind just before they stopped being possible, and only one of our sons was old enough to be an attorney!

It was a quick'n'easy 'just in case' solution, we'll probably do the other kinds at a later date!

bryanb wrote: »

As you said "Some years back" in your first post. You probably have an Enduring power of attorney, Cheaper than the modern Lasting power of attorney. Plus easier to set up without going to court etc. and still valid.
Google to find out the details though.

Biggles wrote: »

Good point, Bryan, if it was signed before 1 Oct 2007 it will be an Enduring Power of Attorney (three or four sides of white A4 text).

If it was signed from 1 Oct 07 onwards, it will be a Lasting Power of Attorney (about 11 sides of pastel green/blue A4 set out with boxes and graphics).

The former can be used without registration until the Donor begins to lose mental capacity, the latter can't be used at all until it's registered.

And what it means is that the OP can deal with financial decisions and 'trump' her brother's inclinations, BUT if there's a disagreement over treatment options / care homes etc then I don't think her indications of what her parents would want have any more weight than his do.

OP, I think the key thing is to find out what you signed, and know where you'd find the original if it was needed. You could also suggest that doing the 'Health and Welfare' one would be sensible, because I believe that encourages the person to say what their wishes would be. But you don't HAVE to be attorney for that if you don't wish to.

moneyistooshorttomention

Okay. From what people say it looks as if the POA my parents have is almost certainly the Enduring kind and doesnt specify any "health and welfare" aspects - just the financial ones.

Looks further as if it has to be "registered".



1. Re the "registration":

- who does this registering? (presumably my parents?)

- what is the process for getting it "registered" and does it cost anything?

2. I wasn't aware there is a "health and welfare" POA and that this comes as something totally separate to the main one. I presume a "health and welfare" one is a recent development. What exactly is covered in this one? Is it something akin to a Living Will? (I know what Living Wills are - because I've had one of them for myself for years - back before it even looked as if they would become "legal" in fact).

(At least I don't anticipate any arguments re "health" aspects with my brother. I anticipate he might well try to interfere re financial aspects - because he has already "had a go" at trying to do that some years back. Or maybe I'm being naive here - because different nursing homes charge different rates and he might make it priority to choose the cheapest one possible, rather than the best one possible, if it comes to that.)

dzug1

If you are the Attorney you can get it registered. You can download a form and guidance documents from the OPG website. You'll get it back stamped and everything. The fee is something like £120 from memory.

You then take it to the institutions you want to deal with, they will register it and will thereafter recognise your authority to deal with their affairs. I emphasize take - do not let the original out of your sight. If you have to post it send a certified copy and don't rely on getting it back.

As to nursing home fees - I found the easiest way was to set up a standing order on the donor's bank account for the fees. Every three months they would send a bill for extras which I'd pay by cheque. She didn't (officially anyway) have any cash in her possession. Homes don't like it because of the risk of theft and/or the(false) accusation thereof. I did leave a few pounds in her handbag to keep her happy - it wasn't touched in the 3 plus years she was there

I'm not convinced of the value of the health and welfare POA unless the donor has strong views. All it means is that the professionals will take slightly more notice of you than if you didn't have one.

Biggles

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

From that, I seem to recall it was a smallish white document - which would make it the old-fashioned version then and looks as if it doesnt have to be "registered" at any point.

As per my prev post, it does need to be registered if the Donor starts to lose mental capacity.

"If the Donor becomes unable to make financial decisions, the EPA must be registered before it can be used or, if it is already in use, before it can continue to be used."
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/forms/opg/epa101.pdf

At present, you are able, with the Donor's permission, to take their EPA to a bank or building society and use it as authority to transact business on their behalf, eg if they were unable to get around easily. There is no need to register it while they are mentally fit to give you that permission.

moneyistooshorttomention

Thanks - that makes it very clear as to what is what then.

So, it looks like a case of "maintain a watching brief" and if I think "oh DEAR" at some point and that things are looking a bit "drastic" then I would go and get it "registered" at that point and ask my brother for half the £120 odd fee (yep...I think I have a feeling just what his response to that one would be somehow:( and I'd be into him permanently owing me £60 odd) and I can do whats necessary.

Good idea, if it came to a home, to get them to send a bill for "extras" at intervals and just hand over a cheque to cover it. Nothing is going to be foolproof and thief-proof - but I guess that's about the best that could be done. Just wait for a list of: "2 hairdresser visits £x, 1 chiropody visit £y" and so on and hope it was accurate.

As regards getting hold of a copy of the EPA if need be - then I guess I could just go to my parents' solicitor, prove my identity to them and they would have a copy.

Re the modern "health and welfare" POA's - it looks as if I had better not ever sign one of them if the question arises - as it would appear they may not give me much (if any) more "power to my elbow" to ensure the welfare of my mother, but would have the disadvantage of looking like I had officially agreed to be a carer (something I'm tying myself up in all sorts of knots to avoid - making sure mother is okay on the one hand, but I'm not turned into a carer on the other hand).

frogeyesimon

As far as the £120 fee is concerned, I'd have thought it pefectly reasonable, once the POA has been registered, for you to be re-imbursed from the donor's assets. It would after all be in "their best interest" to have this properly sorted, and as such perfectly reasonable for them to bear the cost. No need to go "cap in hand" to your brother