I need to go to court. May I have some advice please

MamaMoo_2

Whilst they haven't admitted damaging your rifle, did the service you used not state that the gun would be returned as-new?
If so, then the fact that you have received the gun back in the state it's in would be proof that they did not do as promised.
Also, the repair work they undertook FOC, unless they stated that it was a goodwill gesture, "without prejudice" or similar, this also looks good for you. It appears to be an admission of liability. However, you must remember that it's not an actual admission of liability, so it's something that would be for a judge to decide.
With regards to the letter you sent, did you begin it with "Letter Before Action" to make clear what it was? If not, it'd be advisable to do so.
And finally, when calculating costs, have you done your best to mitigate your costs. For example, are you claiming for a brand new gun? Realistically, you need to be claiming for either the cost to repair your gun if this is lower, or the cost of a second hand gun in the same condition as yours. Claiming and being awarded costs for a brand new gun would be classed as betterment, and may reduce your likelihood of success.

agrinnall

I don't know anything about the market for second hand air rifles, but I would be surprised to find that one that must be at least 5 years old is still worth what you paid for it, so you may be overestimating what you can recover in your action. Are you able to get a better estimate of what the direct replacement costs (i.e. not new for old) would be before you try to speak to a solicitor?

Takeaway_Addict

moneysavinglee wrote: »

Hi, yeah sure - The rifle itself is in the region of about £1600 in itself. Then there is the scope that may or may not be knackered (wont know till the rifle is fixed, but the damage to rifle is visible), which is about £350, then there are the mounts, £50 or so, £100 for the bipod they bent, the money I have already paid them which is over £200, the cost of going back and forth 5 times, and the cost of taking them to court.

I dont know what I can or cant claim for, but even if its just for the rifle, thats £1600 or so

Its not cleaver is it?!!?

Its a rifle isn't it

jogu

moneysavinglee wrote: »

I dont know what I can or cant claim for, but even if its just for the rifle, thats £1600 or so

You can claim the costs of putting you back in the position you should be.

That wouldn't include the full cost of a new rifle (unless it's a write off), but would cover the cost of repairing your existing one back to the state it was in / should have been in after the service.

You can't claim back money you paid them for the service, you are just claiming to get back to the position you should have been if they had correctly done the service.

bris

Not as clean cut as just suing, there was a post a few days ago on here about a member who lost a case because they couldn't prove the repair centre caused the damage they claimed they had caused.
You will need to also limit your solicitors costs as you will not be awarded solicitors costs if you win in the vast majority of cases.

arcon5

Why will the claim be for over £2k?

You claim the lessor cost of
- replacing the rifle
or
- having the rifle repaired elsewhere

moneysavinglee_2

Hi Everyone,

thanks for taking the time to offer your advice. And good food for thought too.

MamaMoo wrote: »

Whilst they haven't admitted damaging your rifle, did the service you used not state that the gun would be returned as-new?
If so, then the fact that you have received the gun back in the state it's in would be proof that they did not do as promised.
Also, the repair work they undertook FOC, unless they stated that it was a goodwill gesture, "without prejudice" or similar, this also looks good for you. It appears to be an admission of liability. However, you must remember that it's not an actual admission of liability, so it's something that would be for a judge to decide.
With regards to the letter you sent, did you begin it with "Letter Before Action" to make clear what it was? If not, it'd be advisable to do so.
And finally, when calculating costs, have you done your best to mitigate your costs. For example, are you claiming for a brand new gun? Realistically, you need to be claiming for either the cost to repair your gun if this is lower, or the cost of a second hand gun in the same condition as yours. Claiming and being awarded costs for a brand new gun would be classed as betterment, and may reduce your likelihood of success.

As new? Yes thats what they told me, and that was the phrase I remember being sold on. Obviously nobody would expect it to look new, but I would think everybody would expect that to mean 'mechanically new'. Besides, it was working perfectly as far as my skill could tell. Now, a one eyed rocking horse could tell you it isnt right!

LBA - Yes, I ended the letter notifying them that this letter was to serve as a Letter Before Action and a Notice of Failure to Perform (as advised by someone).

Mitigating Costs - Yes, I do see your point there. The problem is, to fix my rifle, a gun smith would have to take it apart, and in doing so, the manufacturers may claim that they did the damage (thats what the gun smiths are worried about anyway). As to a second hand rifle; id be very reluctant to accept one. They are too finiky, if you get my meaning. Even new ones dont always work properly, and no two are the same! Id sooner accept the market value for mine and put the money towards a new one. Getting it fixed would actually be my first option, but I cant!

OK, well thanks for that advice. I dont want the Judge to think Im taking the mick.

agrinnall wrote: »

I don't know anything about the market for second hand air rifles, but I would be surprised to find that one that must be at least 5 years old is still worth what you paid for it, so you may be overestimating what you can recover in your action. Are you able to get a better estimate of what the direct replacement costs (i.e. not new for old) would be before you try to speak to a solicitor?

Yes, your right. I hadnt really thought of it like that. Its just that until you own a rifle and have used it for a while, you might not notice the faults. I never considered getting another second hand one TBH.

Old rifles are not really any worse than new ones. Not 5 years anyway.....50 years perhaps! Even antique weapons are surprisingly accurate - its just the load/fire rate thats a bit slow. (im talking fire arms there, not air arm, but accuracy is good in both. People have made straight things for a good while now...)

Having had a quick look, it seems to be worth about £1000.

jogu wrote: »

You can claim the costs of putting you back in the position you should be.

That wouldn't include the full cost of a new rifle (unless it's a write off), but would cover the cost of repairing your existing one back to the state it was in / should have been in after the service.

You can't claim back money you paid them for the service, you are just claiming to get back to the position you should have been if they had correctly done the service.

All I want is what I was supposed to get in the first place, nothing more. To me a new rifle is not a bonus, its something i will accept to stop all this back and forth. Its not like I can charge them for my time.....can I? I thought it would have been an easy option for them and not unreasonable, so I would have accepted.

I am worried that the rifle may be a write off. I have no idea what is causeing the problem, other that that they have replaced parts that they damaged with faulty parts. The gunsmith I took it too said the barrel looks bent to him, but thats about all he can say (he test fired 20 shots and said it was rubbish, plus noticed its leaking air when fired).

bris wrote: »

Not as clean cut as just suing, there was a post a few days ago on here about a member who lost a case because they couldn't prove the repair centre caused the damage they claimed they had caused.
You will need to also limit your solicitors costs as you will not be awarded solicitors costs if you win in the vast majority of cases.

Well, I cant prove it either.... I believe I can provide reasonable doubt though... I hope I can anyway

I dont really want to go down the solictor route TBH. Id rather not have to pay all that money out, and also I think it will be a good learning exercise for me.

Can anyone give me a clue what I need to be getting on with? My intuition tells me to start getting all my evidence together to present my case? Is there anything I definately need to have, such as a report from a professional gunsmith? If I am missing evidence, will I get a request to present it?

Thanks Again Everyone

moneysavinglee_2

I just thought Id say too that I am not the only one who has problems with this factory. The forums are full of problems, and the gunsmith that looked at the rifle doesnt even sell that brand anymore because of these types of problems!

I wont be a little git and say who it is, but I bet if your a serious air rifler you will know who I am talking about! LOL

MamaMoo_2

When I talk about getting your rifle fixed, you can just get a quote (ideally 3 quotes from 3 gunsmiths, but I understand this may be difficult) and then you can claim the cost of repair. You don't have to get it repaired first, you can claim based on the quote if you're worried, and then get the repair done post-court.
Also, if you don't want to buy a second hand one, that's fine. Find the average cost of a second hand one in the same condition as yours (compare several prices of the same model as yours with a similar age, condition etc.) and work out a figure based on that. You then have the option, if that cost is awarded (say for example the avg. cost would be £1.1k, and the judge awards you this) then you can put that towards the cost of a new rifle, you don't have to buy a second hand one, but realistically that's the limit of what you can claim for.
Do you have proof of their "as-new" guarantee? If you do, or you can get proof, then this will help you.

moneysavinglee_2

MamaMoo wrote: »

When I talk about getting your rifle fixed, you can just get a quote (ideally 3 quotes from 3 gunsmiths, but I understand this may be difficult) and then you can claim the cost of repair. You don't have to get it repaired first, you can claim based on the quote if you're worried, and then get the repair done post-court.
Also, if you don't want to buy a second hand one, that's fine. Find the average cost of a second hand one in the same condition as yours (compare several prices of the same model as yours with a similar age, condition etc.) and work out a figure based on that. You then have the option, if that cost is awarded (say for example the avg. cost would be £1.1k, and the judge awards you this) then you can put that towards the cost of a new rifle, you don't have to buy a second hand one, but realistically that's the limit of what you can claim for.
Do you have proof of their "as-new" guarantee? If you do, or you can get proof, then this will help you.

Thanks MamaMoo

Good advice. I never really thought of getting a used one as a replacement as it was the factory I was dealing with. I was trying to be as calm and amicable about the whole thing as is humanly possible and after everything I just assumed that the easiest/cheapest option for them is to send out a new one; which although I would have prefered my rifle to have been right the first, second or even third time, it would be a fair and simple solution for both parties. I never thought how it may sound to a court....

I guess I must have read something about like for like replacement, and the fact that they seem unable to fix it.... I can't remember anyway, but you make a good point.

They never put the 'as new' bit in writing, they just said it on the phone. After all it is the factory that makes them, and I certainly didn't expect it to be in a worse condition that when it arrived.