New Boiler . .fair quote?

EliteHeat

As I suspected you:-

• Have not done this job
• Have no idea how to do it
• Do not know how long it takes
• Have no idea what the risks and/or problems might be

In addition, you are failing completely to take into account the cost of running a business, the time taken to get to and from the job, the time taken to survey the job, the time taken to obtain the gear, unpacking, packing up etc.

Any competent plumber can do the job in a day, no one but a fool would book any more work for that day. Anyone who says it is possible to do in two hours is seriously misguided and is taking nothing, absolutely nothing else into account.

For you education, I will list the actions necessary to complete this task and assume that you have (a) bought the right size cylinder (b) bought the right model of cylinder - direct or indirect (c) bought either 1 or 2 27" or 11" immersion heaters and thermostats - you hadn't forgotten those had you? (d) done all of the running around described earlier. So, the list is:-

• Attempt to isolate the cold water supply to the cylinder - oops, the gate valve is stuck and/or letting by
• Drain the hot water cylinder - oops there is no drain off fitted
• Drain the central heating system - oops there is no drain off fitted
• Remove downstairs radiator and connect hose - oops, system does not drain
• Remove the circulator pump fitted in front of the cylinder - oops, the pump valves are siezed
• Fit the new connectors to the bosses and fit the new immersion heater(s)
• Disconnect the flow, return and DHW take off connections
• Cut out the cold feed pipe work
• Remove the old cylinder
• Offer up the new cylinder - oops, no connections line up
• Cut into the central heating return pipe work and replace the cold feed
• Fabricate the cold feed and attach to the rear of the cylinder - don't forget the new drain off
• Place the HWC into into optimum position
• Cut out the DHW feed and vent pipe work and fabricate new to fit
• Nip up to the loft to ensure that the open vent is still positioned over the CWC
• Cut out the return pipe work and fabricate new to fit
• Cut out the flow pipe work and fabricate new to fit
• Fit new gate valves
• Fill HWC and check for leaks
• Rewire immersion heater to fused spur
• Fit new drain off to heating system and replace the radiator that had to be removed earlier (remember?)
• Fit new circulator pump valves
• Fill heating system and check for leaks
• Check new immersion heater for correct operation
• Fire boiler - oops, it cuts out almost immediately
• Remove air locks from HWC heat exchanger
• Remove ir locks from central heating system
• Check all radiators to make sure they ALL heat up ok
• Check DHW supply to ensure it is warming up OK - Oh no, hot water outlets are air-locked
• Pack up all gear
• That's it - job over

So, any competent plumber can do this in two hours? I have fitted 100's of cylinders and have never managed this. I have had all of the problems above though and have a far greater respect for things that you have never heard of going wrong.

I am afraid that trivialising other peoples areas of expertise is very easy to do but in reality it is a pointless exercise as I very much doubt whether you would put yourself in a position where you had to justify your flawed and (frankly) offensive assertions. Perhaps you would like to tell me how long it takes to install a central heating system or convert from a system boiler to a combination boiler?

George_Bray

A forum like this is always in danger of being over-run by professionals who can try and out-gun the best intentioned suggestions of DIYers like me. You pays your money and takes your choice. I still say there is something very wrong with quotes of £775 or £1500 to replace a water cylinder, no matter how much EliteHeat tries to justify over-pricing. Many of the cost elements should jolly well be included in a fair labour rate of somewhere around £30 or £40 per hour, perhaps. Wouldn't that be fair? Or do you think the labour rate of £600+ per hour which I calculated earlier is better value and you're more assured of quality? He'll have us pay for the alarm clock which wakes him up to get to your job, next. If you write down the list of tasks for doing many things it looks lots more complex than it really is. That's what he's done here. Some people will be scared into thinking it "MUST" cost £775, or that to have it done cheaper is somehow a bodge job.

No, I have never replaced a water cylinder, although I will be doing so soon, and I'd be amazed if it's not pretty straightforward. But neither have I ever picked pears off a pear tree and I could guess what's involved with many new tasks without being too far out - certainly not the difference between £30 and £600 PER HOUR.

It's also worrying when someone tries to destroy your credibility by doing a 'background check' as EliteHeat did. It's a bit sneaky, I feel.

Regards
George

EliteHeat

The point that I was trying to make is that however well intentioned you are trying to be, you are accusing people (me included) of charging rip-off prices when this is simply not the case. Admittedly, £1500 is a rip-off.

I am more than happy to help and advise any DIYer in their quest to do their own maintenance - where it is safe and legal to do so. I would not say that changing a hot water cylinder is beyond a competant DIYer who has the patience, tools and understanding of the mechanics, problems and pitfalls of the task.

I have however, witnessed many attempts to do a job such as this and seen the damage caused. 20 gallons of water pouring through a ceiling is not an experience that many would wish to repeat.

I wish you every success in your project to replace your HWC and should you run into problems then I and no doubt many others, will be more than happy to try and help you out.

George_Bray

EliteHeat

Thank you for your conciliatory comments; much appreciated. I must say the free advice which professionals bring to forums like this is presumably much greater than any 'payback' from which you may happen to benefit.

I wouldn’t want to take this thread too far off topic because the OP was asking about getting someone in; not whether they should attempt it as a DIY job. I hope I’m not about to take on more than I can chew, though! Once bitten, twice shy but, as I haven’t had a ‘DIY disaster’ yet, I have reasonable confidence. I’m going to fit an indirect cylinder like the Screwfix one I mentioned above, in place of an indirect, single-feed type, as currently fitted in my house. To achieve that, I need to add a small header tank in the loft. I figure this simplification, back to basic indirect architecture, is better than splashing out on a far-more-expensive, new single-feed cylinder. I also have the advantage that I won’t hit many of the tasks in your useful list because I have warm air heating,; no central heating; no pumps. The water cylinder is purely for hot water (bath, shower and taps). I will move the immersion heating element and 'sussex flanges' across from the existing 25 year old cylinder. The OP should be able to do that, too. The supplier of the most recent immersion element should replace it free. These electric elements should last for decades. Either the component or the guy who fitted it must have got something wrong, and take responsibility, shouldn't they?

Regards
George

EliteHeat

If you have warm air heating and not a seperate burner (as some warm air units have) for hot water then you need a direct cylinder and not an indirect one.

The longevity of the immersion heater is dictated by (a) how much it is used and (b) the hardness of your water. If you try and replace it you will need to try and prise the old 2 1/2" washer off which might be difficult. if you can manage to get it off undamaged, smear it with some LS-X which should seal it OK.

George_Bray

EliteHeat wrote: »

If you have warm air heating and not a seperate burner (as some warm air units have) for hot water then you need a direct cylinder and not an indirect one.

No, this water cylinder of mine is definitely indirect, single-feed, i.e. there's some auto mechanism inside the cylinder which fills the indirect circuit and somehow keeps the indirect fill separate from the main body of water. It's not direct. There is an entirely separate burner (next to the warm air burner) just for the water heating circuit. I need to fit a new pipe all the way from the planned new header tank in the loft, down to near-ground level, I believe, in moving away from the "single-feed indirect" to "simple indirect" arrangement.

Or could I get away with just taking the header feed to level with the bottom of the water cylinder on the first floor? i.e. rather than running the new pipe all the way to the ground floor below? Perhaps you need the higher input pressure provided by the extra few feet in height.

Regards
George

EliteHeat

OK, I'm guessing that you have an old Johnson and Starley J25 combined warm air unit and small burner for the hot water side.

From memory, the hot water side is just a gravity circuit (no pump) and of course you need an indirect cylinder.

The header tank performs two functions; it keeps the system topped up with water and provides an open vent to the system, thus allowing for expansion - it would explode otherwise.

The cold feed should be teed into the return primary pipework, as should the open vent.

You can combine the the cold feed and open vent but this will make the system slower to fill up and on a gravity circuit, prone to air locks.

roses

I sent you a PM for my plumber in NW London, try him for a quote. He is Corgi registered.

chicarg

roses wrote: »

I sent you a PM for my plumber in NW London, try him for a quote. He is Corgi registered.

Hi roses, I've pm'ed you about your plumber

Razor

Well good job this didn't turn in2 a punchup!! Nearly 2 scared to add my twopennyworth so glad ur all friends now. Immersions usually fail this quickly if they are covered in a layer of scale, was it an economy 7 type cylinder with an element just up from the bottom if the cylinder is not leaking most plumbers would just use a wet n dry vac to hoover out the debris, it tends to be flakes rather than solid lumps or if its in the top just remove the cylinder and the element then u can just tip it upside down, makes a mess though but it is the cheapest option.

On the subject of how long the elements should last I have a pair of shoes that I've owned for 20 years and they look like new, still I've never actually worn them another way of pointing out that the element in an indirect cylinder doesn't do much work!! Personally I would fit a new one with a push button reset.

Either way I think £1500 is at least twice as much as it should cost.