question about taking savings out

raywilm

I had £7600 in a savings account, which I told the DWP about and they put it on their system. I took out £3700 to repay my relative for the many times he has bought me things over the years. So I have about £3900 left.

I called the DWP saying it's now £3900 in there and (perhaps since it was less than it was) they asked me to write in, I did, and they wrote back saying they wanted a statement with evidence of all the transactions between then and now.

Some of the £3700 I took out in cash and some to my bank account which I took out in cash. That was when the savings account was "postal" so I would write them letters to make any transfer. Since then it has now changed to a telephone access account savings account. But still has £3900 in there(£7600 minus the £3900 I took out). The account number changed with the upgrade. (that's just a technicality). They did it by closing that postal account and opened a new one that works by phone and they transferred the money across.

I have fallen out with the relative since and don't have anything to do with him.

It's difficult to get statements from the postal account time, which was a year ago. So I just have an online statement from the new account saying £3900. But the guy on the phone said he wants to see all the transactions that took it down to £3900.

I'm also wondering if regardless, they're not going to be happy about me taking out £3700 in a short time period (maybe like £2k at once, and £400 a few times and £200 a few times). I always had issues taking money out of that postal account! But it would've been quite a bit moved out in a short time.

I don't know if they'd take issue with that?

And difficult also to get statements showing those transactions too because it was back when it was a postal account that account is closed. But if I could, I wonder if they'd take issue with it still?

While it's the case that they've been giving me less in benefits over the past year, because they've thought i've got £7600, i'm worried that they're going to take issue with me taking a lot out in that short period.

Any thoughts on what I could do?

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow

From an outsiders point of view, it's looks as if you have deliberately moved funds into someone else's name sorry. I can see why they are suspicious.

What benefits are you on?

Gentile

Looks like deliberate deprivation of assets in my view.

xylophone

I took out £3700 to repay my relative for the many times he has bought me things over the years.

This was not a debt that you had to repay presumably so I think that this might well be regarded as deprivation of capital?
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/hbgm-bw1-assessment-of-capital.pdf

rogerblack

raywilm wrote: »

I had £7600 in a savings account, which I told the DWP about and they put it on their system. I took out £3700 to repay my relative for the many times he has bought me things over the years. So I have about £3900 left.

Benefits do not stop at £6000 - they are reduced by £1 for every £250 (in general) up to a ceiling of 16K.

You have £3900 of 'acutal capital'.
(Assuming for the moment that you have no other savings or assets that are counted whatsoever).

You risk being treated as if you have the other £3700 'notional capital' - for a total of 7600 - this will reduce your benefit entitlement by £1600/250 = £7/week.
If you spent £1600 of your £3900 on legitimate reasonable expenses - this reduction will go away, even if you are held to still have the £3700.

Were you on benefits when you gave away the £3700?
If it is decided you do have £3700 of notional capital - because you gave it away for the purpose of increasing the amount of benefit you'd get - you can appeal this decision.
However - it's going to be tricky to argue this.

raywilm

OK, I notice in that pdf(thanks xylo) it mentions a "2 year disregard", to give the person time to spend it. (Is that like an "infinite disregard" i.e. disregarded for their lifetime, but with a 2 year wait beforehand)?

I am on ESA and am planning to apply for HB.

The ESA are working on the basis that I have £7600 in there because if I have said I have less they want me to send them a statement showing all transactions, as mentioned, and that's an issue for me and may be an issue with them too, as people have mentioned it could be considered "deprivation of assets" as it was a debt I might not have really needed to pay - My relative didn't write me a bill but I felt like I should. And I paid it in cash over some months(it was a postal account and difficult for me to work with). I could leave it and then they'll just continue ESA as me having £7600 savings.

But i'd like to apply for HB and i'm not sure what I should do re that. I doubt they'd accept an old statement with £7600. I could give them a recent statement with £3700 on it which is true, but would conflict with what the ESA have down, which is £7600. And reconciling them would have the "deprivation of assets" issue.

What is the penalty, if any, for deprivation of assets? (Remember that they still have me down as £7600 so it's not like i've been paying less).

rogerblack

raywilm wrote: »

OK, I notice in that pdf(thanks xylo) it mentions a "2 year disregard",

Why would you be entitled to a disregard?
There are only limited circumstances in which capital is disregarded.
And no, 2 year is not a lifetime, unless you are planning on a very short life.

skintandscared_2

If you have nearly £4k in the bank, why do you need HB? Why can't you just pay your own rent?

raywilm

rogerblack wrote: »

Benefits do not stop at £6000 - they are reduced by £1 for every £250 (in general) up to a ceiling of 16K.

I know

rogerblack wrote: »

You have £3900 of 'acutal capital'.
(Assuming for the moment that you have no other savings or assets that are counted whatsoever).

You risk being treated as if you have the other £3700 'notional capital' - for a total of 7600 - this will reduce your benefit entitlement by £1600/250 = £7/week.

Yeah £3700 out. £3900 left.

Though they haven't got me taking £3700 out on record as I haven't sent them a list of transactions to prove it's down to that. So they still consider me to have £7600

I've been payed ESA under the assumption that I have £7600 rather than the £3900 that I have.

That is why I called them to tell them I had £3900 and they asked me to write in and they want a list of all the transactions. And I understand though this could be considered "deprivation of assets". So I've let them go on and treat me as having £7600.

I want to apply for HB and am not sure what to do there, that's part of the issue.. see my last post.

rogerblack wrote: »

If you spent £1600 of your £3900 on legitimate reasonable expenses - this reduction will go away, even if you are held to still have the £3700.

Well, much of the £3700 I removed, was paid in cash to the relative over a few months. Of the remainder that I kept, say £1600, I would've used it to buy some daily things like food and sometimes travel so over time like almost a year, I suppose it adds up to at least that £1600 but I don't have receipts.

rogerblack wrote: »

Were you on benefits when you gave away the £3700?
If it is decided you do have £3700 of notional capital - because you gave it away for the purpose of increasing the amount of benefit you'd get - you can appeal this decision.
However - it's going to be tricky to argue this.

£3700 out £3900 left <-- reminding note to self!

I was on benefits, but I didn't notify them straight away. (so it's not like I was trying to do it to increase the amount of benefit I got) I notified them about 6 months later. And I wouldn't have needed to remove as much as £3700 anyway.
BTW as mentioned they would only accept that I have £3900 if I provide statements with transactions and I haven't so they're treating it as £7600.

What is the penalty though, for "deprivation of assets" when one is treated at the higher asset figure anyway?

raywilm

skintandscared wrote: »

If you have nearly £4k in the bank, why do you need HB? Why can't you just pay your own rent?

I would have no more life savings, i'd rather not and fortunately I don't have to do that. BTW I live frugally, no marriage no children Note-the money in the savings account was from my parents put in when I was a child.
But let's not change the subject.

skintandscared_2

raywilm wrote: »

I would have no more life savings, i'd rather not and fortunately I don't have to do that. BTW I live frugally, no marriage no children Note-the money in the savings account was from my parents put in when I was a child.
But let's not change the subject.

I have no children. I live frugally. I also have no savings but have to pay all my own bills and rent. But you have £4k in the bank and want me to pay your rent too? In your words, "I'd rather not".