question about taking savings out

rogerblack

raywilm wrote: »

What is the penalty though, for "deprivation of assets" when one is treated at the higher asset figure anyway?

It's only if you are (treated as) depriving yourself of assets that the assets you have given away are still counted.

Clearly - if you haven't told them you no longer have 7.6K - the treatment doesn't matter.
Once you tell them that you have spent some of the money they may want to find out how you spent it - as they apparantly are.
If they decide that you have spent the money to get more benefit, they may continue to treat you as if you have the original amount.

You should tell the council tax people you have your current amount of savings, and fill in the form completely accurately reading it carefully.
It may ask questions about recent account activity.

[Deleted User]

you say the bank account was changed from postal to telephone a year ago and that you cannot get relevant statements,i have news for you ask the bank and you will (i have been in a simlar situation for 15 months with no problems getting statements),and it seems convenient that you have fallen out with the relative to whom you gave the money...no wonder the dwp want more details,so would i

missapril75

raywilm wrote: »

I've been payed ESA under the assumption that I have £7600 rather than the £3900 that I have.

It's only the excess of £1600 that matters. If they treated you as still having £2k of the total withdrawn, then you'd be under the £6k and there'd be no reduction in benefit.

Telling them of the new balance makes it look more dramatic than it was, maybe.

Depending on how long between the original balance and now it might be accepted that a "spend" of £1600 was not unreasonable depending what it went on.

I would've used it to buy some daily things like food and sometimes travel so over time like almost a year, I suppose it adds up to at least that £1600 but I don't have receipts.

That wouldn't work, because benefits are (in theory) taking care of those things. £1600 would need to have been used for ("reasonable") things not covered by benefits.

I don't understand the reference to HB. If you are having tariff income deducted from a means tested benefit, then you'd get maximum passported HB based on mere entitlement regardless of the deduction. Or has something changed about that?

Worst case scenario, benefits carry on with the current tariff income deducted.

More likely scenario, they accept some reasonable reduction in the total balance - nobody is really expected to leave their money untouched for ever and a day - and they treat you as having actual and notional capital of a lower amount than originally, but maybe still above £6k, with them reducing the tariff income deducted.

missapril75

Just as an example of real life:
Person on full Income Support and Housing Benefit has money in the bank.

Basic needs are met, but few people consider that really covers all eventualities. That's why there's been a Social Fund system.

Let's say that person spends an extra £20 a week. It's easily done. A trip to the cinema, a take-away, a pint or two, support the local football team.

Nobody is going to say that's excessive. Was it Panorama who had a tory MP living on benefit for a week and part of his normal week was going to football?

Anyway, that's over £1000 gone in a year. And that's with no complications like a shortfall between HB and actual rent. And no applications for the situations where social fund payments would be applied for. They'd be refused of course because one would be expected to use the money in the bank.

And there is the principle that accepts savings do get spent. Within reason.

raywilm

I contacted my relative, and explained the situation, and he was a bit annoyed at the idea that I didn't need to pay him back, he said I did, and he's glad I did, and he has no problem at all showing the expenses i'm paying him back for.
So maybe they should accept that I had to pay him?

. . But as some have mentioned.. It's only the excess £1600 of what I took out that is the issue, and over a year I think I can say I have reasonably spent that.

MissApril, you mentioned my reference to HB(which I want to claim). When I called my local council about HB, he asked for 4 pieces of evidence. Including a letter showing i'm resident at my address for a year, and what benefits I was getting, and bank statements for the past 3 months. So it seemed like, if they assume savings of £7600, they'd give me reduced HB just as ESA is reduced. Do you think not? Why are they asking for bank statements then?

Do they only ever reduce one benefit? (in my case, ESA)

I'd like to get what you call the worst case scenario at the moment, as a start, i.e. benefits with the £7600 tariff income deducted. But to get HB I have to show bank statements and they'd show that I have £3700 savings not £7600 savings, and that'd contradict what the ESA have listed(£7600). And i'm not sure if that'd be a problem.

So, I think maybe I should try to resolve this somehow with the ESA, before trying to claim HB?

Thanks

bloolagoon

raywilm wrote: »

I contacted my relative, and explained the situation, and he was a bit annoyed at the idea that I didn't need to pay him back, he said I did, and he's glad I did, and he has no problem at all showing the expenses i'm paying him back for.
So maybe they should accept that I had to pay him?

. . But as some have mentioned.. It's only the excess £1600 of what I took out that is the issue, and over a year I think I can say I have reasonably spent that.

MissApril, you mentioned my reference to HB(which I want to claim). When I called my local council about HB, he asked for 4 pieces of evidence. Including a letter showing i'm resident at my address for a year, and what benefits I was getting, and bank statements for the past 3 months. So it seemed like, if they assume savings of £7600, they'd give me reduced HB just as ESA is reduced. Do you think not? Why are they asking for bank statements then?

Do they only ever reduce one benefit? (in my case, ESA)

I'd like to get what you call the worst case scenario at the moment, as a start, i.e. benefits with the £7600 tariff income deducted. But to get HB I have to show bank statements and they'd show that I have £3700 savings not £7600 savings, and that'd contradict what the ESA have listed(£7600). And i'm not sure if that'd be a problem.

So, I think maybe I should try to resolve this somehow with the ESA, before trying to claim HB?

Thanks

So during the time you were working and earning you didn't pay back "for over years loans", yet the day you become unemployed you need to pay it back, when you need it the most.

Doesn't make sense at all.

It reads like you gave money to mate/relative to keep for you so you can claim full benefits.

I am not suggesting that is the case but to an outside looking in as the benefits agencies will be, that many things do not stack up. My husband and I were out of work last year and I would never have been able to pay back money I owed. I owed my mother money but there is no way at that point in time I could pay it back, I needed it to live.

Sorry but it stinks for spending to gain benefits.

raywilm

bloolagoon wrote: »

So during the time you were working and earning you didn't pay back "for over years loans", yet the day you become unemployed you need to pay it back, when you need it the most.

Doesn't make sense at all.<snip>

This was all long after I had stopped working. I was on benefits when my relative bought and had been buying the items for me, he has done so for a year and a half to two years.

bloolagoon wrote:

It reads like you gave money to mate/relative to keep for you so you can claim full benefits.

bloolagoon wrote:

I am not suggesting that is the case but to an outside looking in as the benefits agencies will be, that many things do not stack up.

As I said, he is fine with showing the DWP the items he bought for me which I paid him back for.

Then as now, I was on benefits and had savings from my parents. I suppose I could've used those savings to buy the items myself, but my relative was OK to buy it for me, but expected me to pay it back, if I could. And I did, from my savings. I wasn't keen on using my savings to pay him back, but I did, to pay him.

Horseunderwater

If these were electrical items like a washing machine or some other necessity, then showing a receipt paid by your relative - a copy should surfice - along with a statement from them that they expected you to pay them back in due course when you could, ought to cover the ESA bit.
The housing benefit has nothing to do with the money you did have. When you apply for that, they are interested in the capital that you have now and so you show them bank statements for 3 months back it should still show that £3.9k left, which as it is under the £6k savings limit means that you would get full HB/LHA whichever is applicable to your situation. There is no need as I see it to mention the ESA savings issue to them. However you will need to tell them you get ESA and that it is income related. Same with council tax. Just provide the proof they ask and send off the application forms.

missapril75

raywilm wrote: »

MissApril, you mentioned my reference to HB(which I want to claim). When I called my local council about HB, he asked for 4 pieces of evidence. Including a letter showing i'm resident at my address for a year, and what benefits I was getting, and bank statements for the past 3 months. So it seemed like, if they assume savings of £7600, they'd give me reduced HB just as ESA is reduced. Do you think not? Why are they asking for bank statements then?

That would be what was needed and done for someone claiming HB on grounds of low income - they would do their own assessment - whereas with a passported benefit like the income based ones the assessment has already been done by DWP.

Part of the process in assessing one if these benefits involves DWP advising the fact of entitlement (amount being irrelevant) to the HB office, where someone says they are applying.

I'm not overly familiar with ESA but that was always what happened with JSA(IB) and Income Support, so I don't see why it should be different.

Perhaps at the time you applied for ESA you didn't indicate the likelihood of an HB claim, so nothing was advised to the HB office.

If they have proof of the existence of the benefit, they'll probably be happy at just processing the maximum without the extra work.

skintandscared_2

raywilm wrote: »

I would have no more life savings, i'd rather not and fortunately I don't have to do that. BTW I live frugally, no marriage no children Note-the money in the savings account was from my parents put in when I was a child.
But let's not change the subject.

If you'd had the savings in an account from when you were a child, why did you need the relative to help you buy things you needed? You could have just bought them yourself at the time and then you would have had receipts (and therefore warranties/guarantees) for these "essential" items - not just huge cash withdrawals to explain. Whole thing makes no sense.