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Gross misconduct? Being dismissed? HELP!
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30 posts in and I still have no idea how the evening in question developed. You are going to need to make a better presentation than that if you go to a hearing. Were you indiscreet with personal information? Can your accusers demonstrate it by possession of knowledge they are not entitled to? Did the incident happen anywhere near the locality of the school? Is it the first of its kind? Did the police attend at any time that evening? Can the bar staff or CCTV support any defense you put forward?
TBH I can see why OP doesn't want to go into too much detail and - in my view - it isn't necessary. She has access to legal advice and assistance from the Union and she needs to be making sure that she is getting the support she needs and is entitled to as a union member. I am not convinced that telling her to resign is good advice - simply on the basis that it very rarely is. And even if she would be better off jumping before she is pushed, the union should at least be considering the possibility of a compromise agreement in an attempt to salvage a less damaging reference, if nothing else.
Of course these are only my opinions and others may have perfectly acceptable but differing views.I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.0 -
zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »TBH I can see why OP doesn't want to go into too much detail and - in my view - it isn't necessary. She has access to legal advice and assistance from the Union and she needs to be making sure that she is getting the support she needs and is entitled to as a union member. I am not convinced that telling her to resign is good advice - simply on the basis that it very rarely is. And even if she would be better off jumping before she is pushed, the union should at least be considering the possibility of a compromise agreement in an attempt to salvage a less damaging reference, if nothing else.
Of course these are only my opinions and others may have perfectly acceptable but differing views.
Yes I need to be careful with how much detail I am giving to people. I agree totally with what you are saying and I am now trying to approach my regional officer for more help as you advised.
I have recently found out that my headmistresses PA who took the landlords statement over the telephone has in fact tampered with the statement. She has twisted what he said and wrote things he categorically did not say. He is very annoyed and is getting the statement changed.
Does this go for me? If she has tampered with one she could have done it to all of them.
Correct me if I am wrong but if this was a court case and evidence was tampered with the case could get thrown out? Can I fight for that to happen with me?
Thanks0 -
Chantelle_91 wrote: »
Correct me if I am wrong but if this was a court case and evidence was tampered with the case could get thrown out? Can I fight for that to happen with me?
Thanks
Well, it is not a court case and court rules of procedure don't apply, and no there is no right to have the disciplinary hearing abandoned - the reason being that the person holding the meeting is entitled to rely on the information provided unless there is some reason to disregard it.
However presumably this development means you will have two different and contradictory statements from the landlord? So it is reasonable to point out the differences, but this will only take you so far - firstly because it is not difficult to make a genuine mistake when taking a statement over the phone, so it doesn't necessarily mean she deliberately tampered with it. And secondly, because if the corrected statement contains evidence that goes against you, they are still entitled to take it into account.
BUT there is an argument that if the landlord's statement was sufficiently different, then the other statements may also be unreliable (note not that it necessarily means that she deliberately tampered with them, but that she may also have made mistakes in those statements too). The problem is that this is easily rectified by the decision maker sending copies of the statements to the other school and asking the people concerned to confirm that they are accurate. And that probably doesn't take you much further.
Your problem is that the burden of proof in an employment law context is considerably lower than in a court case - and if it went to tribunal, the tribunal has no power to say that they would not have dismissed on these facts - they can only examine whether the employer honesty believed the evidence before it and whether the decision to dismiss was one that a reasonable employer is entitled to make.
Basically, what I am saying is that "getting off on a technicality" for want of a better phrase, is almost certainly not going to happen.I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.0 -
I do not believe it to be a genuine mistake as the PA is best friends with a colleague of mine who has been suspended for the same reason as me. I believe, and so does the landlord, that she has worded the statement so as to get my colleague 'off of the hook'. I think it is very unfair that she has anything to do with this case. Would it help if I got a statement from the landlord stating that he said no such things?
I really feel like I am being stitched up. Who knows what else she could have changed.0 -
Chantelle_91 wrote: »Would it help if I got a statement from the landlord stating that he said no such things?
I really feel like I am being stitched up. Who knows what else she could have changed.
I thought you said that the landlord is insisting that his statement is revised to properly reflect what he did say? So in effect he is confirming that he did not say those things. I would suggest that you do not get a statement from him yourself, but instead you wait and get advice from a regional officer. Any further investigation is better coming from him/her as s/he is independent, and any comments he makes will carry more weight.I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.0 -
Yes he is revising the statement, I suppose that is sufficient enough. I will definitely be seeking further advice on this from the regional officer.
Thank you.0 -
Just resign. There are too many anomolies in your statements here to engender any credance to your story(ies). Keep some dignity.0
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Chantelle_91 wrote: »
It has been alleged that I spoke about students outside of the work place. However, as I have stated previously, all of their statements are very contradicting. Although they are all generally saying that I said the same thing they are saying I said it A. at different times during the evening B. with different people present and C. in different ways. Also a lot of their statements are : "I was TOLD by my colleague that this is what she said" etc... So I don't understand how those statements can be taken as evidence against me. Also some have said that they had a conversation with me during the night when I had categorically never spoke to them. It seems that the two that I had actually spoken to that night have filtered their version of events to their colleagues and they have all made statements against me based on hear say.
I can't help but notice that you haven't denied doing this, at all.
If you have been talking about students in the pub, surely you can see that its gross misconduct, regardless of whether you think you might get away with it or not?
Was this your first job in a school? What sort of training have you received?0 -
Person_one wrote: »It has been alleged that I spoke about students outside of the work place.
If you have been talking about students in the pub, surely you can see that its gross misconduct, regardless of whether you think you might get away with it or not?
Was this your first job in a school? What sort of training have you received?
Your story seems a little shall I say flexible. You need to be very clear about the accusation you need to defend yourself against. And if you have selectively rebalanced the story here,you need to take into account that the advice may not in part or in full be appropriate.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
Chantelle_91 wrote: »1. My colleagues had not had the "sense to call it a day" they had in fact been told to leave the pub.
Do I get that right, your colleagues were asked to leave the pub (who-by, the landlord?), which, apparently they had the good sense to do, and you refused to join them as you wanted to continue "standing up for yourself"?
Oh dear, oh dear! :eek:0
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