Shill bidding on Ebay - so what?

StaffsSW

Moglex wrote: »

If a seller wants £20 for something, exactly how does his putting it on at £0.99 and shilling it to £19.50 differ from him putting it on at £20?

I'd really like to understand this.

Quite simply the buyer never had a chance to purchase the item at 99p - they were mislead into believing they had a chance of grabbing a bargain, whilst in reality the item was never really available for 99p!

It is up to the seller to gauge the marketplace for the item they are selling, if they can not guarantee a bid, then it should only be listed at the minimum price they are willing to accept for it.

It is a far cry from haggling as mentioned earlier - the idea of haggling (regardless of nation!) is that the buyer negotiates downwards, the seller does not keep increasing the price!

rosieben

ajaxgeezer wrote: »

Hi people,

I was just reading angelcake'sthread about how to prove a shill bidder and I thought "Why shouldn't people shill if they want to?", or perhaps more accurately "Why should shilling be against Ebay's rules?".

A sale/auction is a transaction where a seller wants as high a price as possible, buyer wants as low a price as possible. The seller takes the risk of getting a low price or paying a premium for a reserve bid, so why not have the right to inflate the price of his product by bidding on his own stuff? At the end of the day, if a buyer doesn't want it at the higher price then he/she won't buy it, can walk away without obligation or cost, and the seller would end up with an unsold item and fees (notwithstanding free re-listing).

Shouldn't it be a contest between buyer and seller? Online haggling, if you will.

Not trying to be provocative here, just genuine, but I guess that there will be nicer people than me who won't like this one bit. I also know that I may have missed something fundamental, but am just thinking in print.

cheers.

I thanked you by mistake!

You're talking crap! an auction is bargaining between buyer and seller, but not fair when the buyer is hiding behind a false name! Ringers are not looked on very well in auction rooms, so why should ebay be different!

If I found out that a buyer was doing this I would report them pronto - its cheating!! If you're not happy with the price offered, then you also have the option to pull out of the sale too, and try to sell it elsewhere!!

ajaxgeezer

rare_stuff wrote: »

What?

I've no idea what you're saying here!

I still think it's very much a myth that auctioneers will bounce your bids off the wall, as the vendor will be quite upset if the item sells to the wall, but no payment is made! In all the auctions I go to when a bidder wins they have to hold up their registration number which is then read aloud by the auctioneer. In the average month I travel to alomst a dozen different auction houses, and have yet to see anything that would look like shilling.
The only way shilling could work in a real auction is for a participant to actualy bid to bump the price up, though there is the real risk that they could end up winning the auction.

.... I dunno the whys and wherefores, only that I watched it. Thanks to the poster who said it was called How To Be A Property developer. I've never seen off-the-wall bidding either, but then the auctioneer would have to be skilled wouldn't he, or everyone would see him. I'm good at my job, you're good at yours, he's good at his etc.

Slightly off-topic:
Not quite shilling, more like vengence - I discovered someones max bid on a dozen or so similair lots was over £100, and everyone else was dropping out at £60-£70. As I had a bit of a grudge against this bidder I bid each lot upto £100, costing him about £300-400 extra. I suspect he twigged on to what I'd done later and bid against me on 1 lot I wanted, though it may have backfired on him as I let him win it at just over double what I'd normally pay for a similair lot!

.. lol that's quite naughty - maybe that's why I like it so much

ajaxgeezer

rosieben wrote: »

I thanked you by mistake!

You're talking crap! an auction is bargaining between buyer and seller, but not fair when the buyer is hiding behind a false name! Ringers are not looked on very well in auction rooms, so why should ebay be different!

If I found out that a buyer was doing this I would report them pronto - its cheating!! If you're not happy with the price offered, then you also have the option to pull out of the sale too, and try to sell it elsewhere!!

... thanks for the thanks lol - have reciprocated:)

As for the talking crap, well that's quite harsh as I don't really have an opinion. I simply don't care, I was just musing it over. If I was selling and doing it, I'd think it was great, but if I was buying and someone was doing it, I'd be narked....... the truth though is that I simply don't give two figs as I haven't used ebay in a while, but I was simply thinking about angelcake's post.

rosieben

Sorry didnt explain myself when I said you were talking crap, and sorry if it sounded harsh. I was referring to your point that the buyer can walk away if they want, which is of course correct and I would certainly do this if I expected any cheating on the seller's part. But that doesnt make the cheating acceptable which is what you were implying.

The worst part of any sort of cheating is the effect it will have on ebay. when I first started buying (I dont sell by the way!!) I was full of enthusiasm but with so many scams and cheats I am very wary of buying - I know that buyers can cheat too, so not laying blame just on sellers.

I think ebay has had it now, too many scams, too many hijacks, too many cheats and crooks and its downhill all the way. Its not the place where you could be sure of getting a bargain anymore, and nor is it the place where you could make a million selling either, with or without cheating.

I thanked you again

ajaxgeezer

rosieben wrote: »

Sorry didnt explain myself when I said you were talking crap, and sorry if it sounded harsh.

:grouphug:

I was referring to your point that the buyer can walk away if they want, which is of course correct and I would certainly do this if I expected any cheating on the seller's part. But that doesnt make the cheating acceptable which is what you were implying.

..... I didn't want to imply anything, but if I had to fall on one side or t'other I'd say it was acceptable practice, as the seller takes all the risks with it and has to be responsible for his own actions and whether they succeed or fail. The buyer can walk away at any point with no loss and buy from someone they prefer. You obviously (as a buyer only) would fall on the side of the fence which would favour the buyer and that's fair enough. It's probably not worth debating that point (so why did I bring it up yesterday :doh:) because it's subjective. What's objective is that Ebay forbid it, and it shouldn't be done.

The worst part of any sort of cheating is the effect it will have on ebay. when I first started buying (I dont sell by the way!!) I was full of enthusiasm but with so many scams and cheats I am very wary of buying - I know that buyers can cheat too, so not laying blame just on sellers.

I think ebay has had it now, too many scams, too many hijacks, too many cheats and crooks and its downhill all the way. Its not the place where you could be sure of getting a bargain anymore, and nor is it the place where you could make a million selling either, with or without cheating.

... I agree with you completely, along with your reasons. I have not used Ebay to buy or sell this year, and only look at the site now to get a rough price of an item I want so that I can take that knowledge with me to a physical market/shop and try to do a deal.

I thanked you again

.....the mutual appreciation society is working well

Moglex

stevew8975 wrote: »

Quite simply the buyer never had a chance to purchase the item at 99p - they were mislead into believing they had a chance of grabbing a bargain, whilst in reality the item was never really available for 99p!

It's certainly true that someone shilling after bids have been placed is guilty of wasting people's time and being inconsiderate.

But what if he shills immediately after he's started the aution?

I still find it hard to understand why experienced ebayers get so het up about it when if the use the universally acknowledged 'professional' way of bidding (decide the maximum you are prepared to pay and bid that at the last possible moment) it really won't affect them at all.

I would say; I would never shill myself. I just don't see it as nearly as big a deal as others. There are many worse problems on ebay.

rosieben

ajaxgeezer wrote: »

.....the mutual appreciation society is working well

yes it is :beer:

greeneye

Off the wall bidding at auction houses.
I used to see it all the time when I went to baliff type auctions the same items just appeared back at the auction house a month or so later.

Shill Bidding.
I've been selling the same product for 3 years. I generally only use BINs now which I price at the upper end of what previous sales indicate is the market value (around £150/£160) and they tend to get snapped up as soon as I list.

In the past I always used 99p no reserve auctions and get in the main very good prices. But the inconsistencies in sale prices started to become very noticeable. The same item would one week sell for say £80/£100 and £300 the next week.
Which as a seller can become frustrating. Particularily as I know no one would have bought an item on BIN if I set the price to anything over a £200.

Basically a bidding war is what we all dream of on our open auctions but in my expierience the fact that so many people now use snipe software means that these bidding wars don't happen anywhere near as often as they used to.

But not everyone snipes so as a seller if you were to look through your highest bidders previous bidding patterns and you can spot that they're the type of buyer who regularily gets into bidding wars the temptation to shill is obvious. You may not need to as someone may come along to get into a battle with him but then again there may not be anyone around that week.

The market I work in there's only ever a limited number on ebay worldwide at any time . So I list on BINs in the main but if I spot there's a few buyers around one week who are getting into bidding wars for a particular version of what I'm selling I'll switch back to 99p no reserves and reap the benefits.
EDIT - Not by shilling though - I let them fight it out.

I don't really have a problem with shilling as in the main is doesn't affect me as I snipe. I often spot people doing it but rarely report it even if it means I pay more than I would have had to - I set my snipe price so if I win I win.

What I have come across though and drives me nuts is sellers trying to create a false market place value for items they are selling by bidding up all their competitors auctons on false accounts now that's a hanging offence as far as I'm concerned.

speedyjoe

Shill bidding is wrong because it is dishonest, simple as that. It ruins the trust on which trade relies and therefore harms the interests of honest sellers. As far as I am concerned shill bidders should be strung up by the genitals.