Shill bidding on Ebay - so what?

ajaxgeezer

Hi people,

I was just reading angelcake'sthread about how to prove a shill bidder and I thought "Why shouldn't people shill if they want to?", or perhaps more accurately "Why should shilling be against Ebay's rules?".

A sale/auction is a transaction where a seller wants as high a price as possible, buyer wants as low a price as possible. The seller takes the risk of getting a low price or paying a premium for a reserve bid, so why not have the right to inflate the price of his product by bidding on his own stuff? At the end of the day, if a buyer doesn't want it at the higher price then he/she won't buy it, can walk away without obligation or cost, and the seller would end up with an unsold item and fees (notwithstanding free re-listing).

Shouldn't it be a contest between buyer and seller? Online haggling, if you will.

Not trying to be provocative here, just genuine, but I guess that there will be nicer people than me who won't like this one bit. I also know that I may have missed something fundamental, but am just thinking in print.

cheers.

smartie1976

ajaxgeezer wrote: »

Hi people,

I was just reading angelcake'sthread about how to prove a shill bidder and I thought "Why shouldn't people shill if they want to?", or perhaps more accurately "Why should shilling be against Ebay's rules?".

because it's unfair and unethical.

A sale/auction is a transaction where a seller wants as high a price as possible, buyer wants as low a price as possible. The seller takes the risk of getting a low price or paying a premium for a reserve bid, so why not have the right to inflate the price of his product by bidding on his own stuff? At the end of the day, if a buyer doesn't want it at the higher price then he/she won't buy it, can walk away without obligation or cost, and the seller would end up with an unsold item and fees (notwithstanding free re-listing).

By listing at a higher price ebay gets more in fees. Sellers who shill to bump up the price avoid the higher item insert fees.

Shouldn't it be a contest between buyer and seller? Online haggling, if you will.

Because ebay is an auction site, not a Turkish market place. If everyone shilled sales would fall because buyers could not trust the seller.

frivolous_fay

First and only time I'm going to post in this thread.

It's not just ebay who don't permit shilling. It's widely despised and sometimes illegal.

This forum is not about discussing rule-breaking.

I think this is a pointless discussion. If you have faith in the value of your item, there's no need to shill. If you don't think it will reach the price you want, then hey, NEWSFLASH! It aint worth what you're asking for it!

ajaxgeezer

By listing at a higher price ebay gets more in fees. Sellers who shill to bump up the price avoid the higher item insert fees.

...I can see that's a reason why Ebay don't want people to do it, but not necessarily why it's wrong.

Because ebay is an auction site, not a Turkish market place. If everyone shilled sales would fall because buyers could not trust the seller.

.. or indeed a market place in any other country, but I take the point. However, a buyer will have a figure in mind of an item's value to them, and if the bid exceeds that value then the buyer isn't interested any more and it's the seller's loss?

ajaxgeezer

frivolous_fay wrote: »

First and only time I'm going to post in this thread.

It's not just ebay who don't permit shilling. It's widely despised and sometimes illegal.

This forum is not about discussing rule-breaking.

I think this is a pointless discussion. If you have faith in the value of your item, there's no need to shill. If you don't think it will reach the price you want, then hey, NEWSFLASH! It aint worth what you're asking for it!

.....alternatively, if someone bids past the last shill bid, (deliberately omits patronising "then hey NEWSFLASH!") it plainly is worth it?

Apologies to anyone who is offended, I'm just interested rather than a party with interest as I neither buy nor sell on Ebay any more and have never shilled.

frivolous_fay

Ok, 2nd and last time.

I wasn't trying to be patronising, but seriously - if there are a lot of shill bids on an item, a buyer is going to believe there is DEMAND for the item, and its VALUE is higher, whereas in fact it's a false demand, and the true value is lower.

A bidder might be deceived that an item is worth more if there are several people bidding keenly on it. This may influence what they believe to be a reasonable price, but it doesn't make it true.

ajaxgeezer

frivolous_fay wrote: »

Ok, 2nd and last time.

.... lol love it - had a feeling you'd be back

I wasn't trying to be patronising, but seriously - if there are a lot of shill bids on an item, a buyer is going to believe there is DEMAND for the item, and its VALUE is higher, whereas in fact it's a false demand, and the true value is lower.

A bidder might be deceived that an item is worth more if there are several people bidding keenly on it. This may influence what they believe to be a reasonable price, but it doesn't make it true.

... I see that but my standpoint remains that every item has a value to a prospective purchaser, and it's up to them to establish that value and stick to it. If they get carried away with their own value then it's their own bad planning.

I'm more than happy to end this here, I ain't here for a fight. Beer's on Fay, folks

Moglex

The reason eBay don't like it is obvious - it loses them fees.

As to buyers, for non-collectable goods it will only actually affect those who are so daft that they let what someone else has bid affect their perception of what the item is worth.

(For collectable stuff it's a different story because what they are worth does depend on what people are genuinely prepared to pay for them. This is why it is illegal in 'real' auctions.)

But for normal items it's just a matter of how the seller choses to operate:

Either put the item on at the minimum they are prepared to accept

or

Put it on at a lower value and shill it.

People get very self-righteous and het up about it but it's really rather unimportant for non-collectables.

For those of us who use the recommended sniping method it makes not a scrap of difference.

ajaxgeezer

Moglex wrote: »

The reason eBay don't like it is obvious - it loses them fees.

.... as agreed earlier.

As to buyers, for non-collectable goods it will only actually affect those who are so daft that they let what someone else has bid affect their perception of what the item is worth.

...... my point in a nutshell

(For collectable stuff it's a different story because what they are worth does depend on what people are genuinely prepared to pay for them. This is why it is illegal in 'real' auctions.)

...aren't auctioneers who take bids "off the wall" doing exactly this, and this is widespread in real auctions?

Snooze_Control

Good points put across by both Ajax and Fay. :T

As a buyer I agree with Fay . As a seller I agree with Ajax!

For all those who don't agree with it though, you should take yourself down to a real auction house and you'll see it done by auctioneer on just about every auction as they take bids off the wall (ie. make them up).

Most of my listings on Ebay these days are BINs but I'm not ashamed to say that I have "bumped" up the value of my auction listings in the past. People obviously think that the item is worth the bumped up value otherwise they wouldn't end up being the winning bidder! It's not my problem that they don't know how much the item is worth and I'm certainly not going to tell them as a seller as I'm obviously wanting to get the highest price possible for it.

SC

ajaxgeezer

Snooze_Control wrote: »

Good points put across by both Ajax and Fay. :T

As a buyer I agree with Fay . As a seller I agree with Ajax!

For all those who don't agree with it though, you should take yourself down to a real auction house and you'll see it done by auctioneer on just about every auction as they take bids off the wall (ie. make them up).

Most of my listings on Ebay these days are BINs but I'm not ashamed to say that I have "bumped" up the value of my auction listings in the past. People obviously think that the item is worth the bumped up value otherwise they wouldn't end up being the winning bidder! It's not my problem that they don't know how much the item is worth and I'm certainly not going to tell them as a seller as I'm obviously wanting to get the highest price possible for it.

SC

.... yep, that's about where I sit with it too. If (as a buyer) I can't be bothered to research my item then it's my own fault. If (as a seller) I were to ever inflate an item and ended up with my best mate Dave having bought it, then again, stupid me!