NHS Dental costs - have I been charged correctly?

Annonay

welshdent wrote: »

If some thing happened to your dentist requiring you to see someone else I.e. in the situations you mentioned, normally the contract holder would take over care because it such a logistical pain internally if you are treated by 2 different associates. One of them would end up working for nothing so the principal who gets at least a 50% cut of the fee takes over as contract delivery is their responsibility. It's not like medicine where we are all employed directly. We are ALL independent practitioners even if we may work in the same building.

Hang on, you can't have it both ways.

Either there is a Principal (as I think there is with my latest dentist) and he pays his dentists or there isn't as I think was the case of my previous dentist (where I had to make payments direct to him - I think he paid the surgery for the hire of their facilities rather than they pay him as a dentist) and you suggest by saying every dentist is effectively self employed.

welshdent

As I said to you in my first post. If it is within 8 weeks it could be a continuation. But we are taking your word that it was 4-6 weeks ago so I said we can not see your notes to know the specifics. But as I have also said - there is no incentive to charge you improperly so the best place to go is to your dentist and ask them rather than spoiling for arguments on here. The name band 4 is irrelevant. It exists as emergency or urgent care as all the links highlight.

welshdent

Annonay wrote: »

Hang on, you can't have it both ways.

Either there is a Principal (as I think there is with my latest dentist) and he pays his dentists or there isn't as I think was the case of my previous dentist (where I had to make payments direct to him - I think he paid the surgery for the hire of their facilities rather than they pay him as a dentist) and you suggest by saying every dentist is effectively self employed.

A principal dentist usually owns the practice and the contract then contracts in associates to work as self employed practitioners to do parts of the contract and they are paid for the UDAs that they do minus the agreed split in the gross which is approximately 50% but can be as high as 70% or as low as 30.
In some practices an associate may have their own contract which is separate to the principal or practice contract.
The companies such as Idh, oasis, denticare and names hull may have a group contract so the principal as the company. A small independent practice may have the principal as the owner of the practice and then they have associates too

Annonay

welshdent wrote: »

Goodness you are frustrating. I said that charging you when you could have possibly had a continuation would NOT yield a financial benefit to the dentist because they would be paid the same to treat you as a continuation of treatment as they would if they charged you the standard fee for the band which in this case is a band 2. What's not to get?
If I do a band 2 and you pay nothing I am credited 3 uda's worth. No more no less. For arguments sake lets say it is £60.
If I do a band 2 and you pay £40 I would get 3 uda's or £60. So as I said. There is nothing to be gained by taking a charge from you if they do not have to. The dentist does not make more money. The contract money is paid to the practice by the pct and charge revenue is deducted by the pct.

I don't think any NHS dentist would last long if he didn't charge his patients the appropriate NHS fees.

Unless you know of how I could get free NHS dental treatment in England???

When I pay Mr Smith £40 into his bank account he has £40.
If he then gets paid 3 UDAs (£60) by the PCT he now has £100
When he comes round to doing his returns to the PCT, he will pay the PCT the money he owes them (but as he took £40 from me that according to the rules is not owed to the PCT) then he either keeps it or comes clean, contacts me and offers to give me my money back.

I've never had a dentist yet that has called me up to give me my money back ... but I have in the past successfully challenged charges that I did not think were correct.

Annonay

welshdent wrote: »

As I said to you in my first post. If it is within 8 weeks it could be a continuation. But we are taking your word that it was 4-6 weeks ago so I said we can not see your notes to know the specifics. But as I have also said - there is no incentive to charge you improperly so the best place to go is to your dentist and ask them rather than spoiling for arguments on here. The name band 4 is irrelevant. It exists as emergency or urgent care as all the links highlight.

Are you now calling me a liar?

I've given you the facts and all I want is advice based on those facts please. If they are wrong then obviously any advice you provide me with would probably be wrong.

(Well hopefully right based purely on the information I supplied, but any inaccuracy in that information and the subsequent advice would be my own fault)

welshdent

You are speaking with authority about a system you clearly do not understand. If you pay the practice 40 the pct say well we have had a £40 contribution so we will put in £20 as a top up. If you pay in £0 the pct says oo you did 3 uda's which is £60 - here is 60. The dentist does not get extra money from you. They get the same irrespective of if you pay or not. That's my point. There is no point deliberately cheating you out of money because there's nothing at all to be gained.

welshdent

Annonay wrote: »

Are you now calling me a liar?

I've given you the facts and all I want is advice based on those facts please. If they are wrong then obviously any advice you provide me with would probably be wrong.

(Well hopefully right based purely on the information I supplied, but any inaccuracy in that information and the subsequent advice would be my own fault)

I am not calling you a liar I am saying we can not see your notes to see what your dentist is seeing

You like I am just words on a message board screen. We can take you on blind faith or we do not. Will it affect you? No. Do to have information provided by well meaning people trying to help you which can be presented to your practice? Yes you do

Annonay

welshdent wrote: »

You are speaking with authority about a system you clearly do not understand. If you pay the practice 40 the pct say well we have had a £40 contribution so we will put in £20 as a top up. If you pay in £0 the pct says oo you did 3 uda's which is £60 - here is 60. The dentist does not get extra money from you. They get the same irrespective of if you pay or not. That's my point. There is no point deliberately cheating you out of money because there's nothing at all to be gained.

I didn't say the parctise, I said Mr Smith.

He'll then do his books later and submit that to the PCT.

Whats in the books and whats in his personal bank account can be two different things entirely.

If I pay £40 for treatment this gets topped up to £60
If, because say I'm entitled to entire free treatment, I pay nothing, the dentist still gets his £60

But if I'm charged something for which I shouln't have been charged, then nothing is owed and the PCT pays nothing.
(Unless of course he has managed to obtain £40 from me in which case he is £40 up)

Annonay

welshdent wrote: »

I am not calling you a liar I am saying we can not see your notes to see what your dentist is seeing

You like I am just words on a message board screen. We can take you on blind faith or we do not. Will it affect you? No. Do to have information provided by well meaning people trying to help you which can be presented to your practice? Yes you do

You can only work with the information you are given. You can ask for clarity if necessary.

To think anything else of a poster is being judgemental in my opinion.

welshdent

What you are describing is fraud. However it may well be a bank account in his name however it is more likely to be the business account that the pct use for their deposits. On that form I linked you to it shows a box for patient charge taken. We fill that in (as you know it can only be one of 3 cash values) and they deduct that value from the overall value. The dentist is not paid like it appears you think they are. There is no way legally that they can gain more money by charging you for something you could potentially have had for free. As I said the only people that benefit are the pcts as it is less money they have to shell out from their allocate budgets.