Govt Defeated-Cons Losing Election More Likely

GeorgeHowell

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Nice side step.

NHS bureaucracy and Bank deregulation all the fault of labour too still.

Let's just say that anyone who knows which end is up, including I believe now the Labour Party heirarchy, recognises that encouraging separation of communities leads to far greater problems that encouraging them to integrate does.

Re the NHS and banks -- most certainly.

grizzly1911

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

Let's just say that anyone who knows which end is up, including I believe now the Labour Party heirarchy, recognises that encouraging separation of communities leads to far greater problems that encouraging them to integrate does.

Re the NHS and banks -- most certainly.

Multiculturalism has many meanings depends on how you wish to interpret it.

So the points I raised on the Banks and NHS were nothing to do with Meg the arch Tartar, the conservatives had absolutely nothing to do with it? Their hands are clean and unsullied in any way.

A bit like PFI which was nothing to do with them either.

GeorgeHowell

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Multiculturalism has many meanings depends on how you wish to interpret it.

So the points I raised on the Banks and NHS were nothing to do with Meg the arch Tartar, the conservatives had absolutely nothing to do with it? Their hands are clean and unsullied in any way.

A bit like PFI which was nothing to do with them either.

I agree that the definition is not clear cut, I am working to this one :
"the doctrine that several different cultures (rather than one national culture) can coexist peacefully and equitably in a single country."

Re PFI etc, all of those things became far greater problems under New Labour regardless of when they were started, by whom, and for what reason.

Devon_Sailor

Moby wrote: »

So what exactly are true blue tory policies in your view?

Hope you dont mind me hopping in, as I thought it a very interesting question of self examination. I'm a Conservative voter. Have been for years and make no bones about it, and yet I too am one of those who feels a little disenfranchised by the current incarnation of Government. I think the problem is that I am old fashioned (despite my age lol). So, what values do I hold which makes me feel that I AM a Tory (talk about setting yourself up - standing by for incoming abuse and vitriol! :rotfl:)

• That citizens don't just have "rights" but also responsibilities, to the country and those around them.
• That the job of the State is to provide essential services (health, education, defence) and not to interfere in the minutiae of daily life. I am an adult and should be trusted to make life choices, and be free to do so as long as they do not impact on the safety or wellbeing of others.
• That the State should provide a safety net for the poorest, most vulnerable and most at risk in society. This is an unquestionable moral imperative.
• That, not withstanding the above, taxation should, where possible be kept low; I am an adult. I should be trusted to make the decisions as to where and how I spend my money.
• That every man, woman and child born in this country should have the best possible chance to better themselves and their prospects through hard work, dedication and perseverance. Good social mobility is, I think, a cornerstone atribute of an enlightened and developed society.
• That it is my personal responsibility to get involved in my community to make it a better place. That can be at any level - either the practical (volunteering, standing as a local Councillor, etc) to the less onerous but no less significant - by casting my vote to try and get the best possible candidate into a job to do the grunt-work on my behalf.

There are others, but I thought I have probably given people enough ammunition to start with....

In short, I think if you believe that as you go through life you want to do the best for your family, that you want to work hard to better your standard of living and to provide the best possible start in life (and assist the future prospects of) your children, and have a social conscience whereby you stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves, then you are an old fashioned, very traditional Disraeli-esque Conservative.

How do members of the forum from the Left define themselves?


D_S

grizzly1911

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

Re PFI etc, all of those things became far greater problems under New Labour regardless of when they were started, by whom, and for what reason.

Labour just continued the trend, pushed the boundaries a little, as any party would have done. Modern parties don't like hard, dirty, long haul money, they like the clean quick wins. The conservatives would have been just as eager to reap the perceived benefits of bank deregulation at that time.

The seeds were sown, the crop growing, many willing scrumpers, perhaps their pruning could have been better.

Timing in all these things is key.

grizzly1911

Devon_Sailor wrote: »

In short, I think if you believe that as you go through life you want to do the best for your family, that you want to work hard to better your standard of living and to provide the best possible start in life (and assist the future prospects of) your children, and have a social conscience whereby you stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves, then you are an old fashioned, very traditional Disraeli-esque Conservative.

How do members of the forum from the Left define themselves?


D_S

Sounds like a sound doctrine whichever way you lean.

I wouldn't say they are necessarily only Conservative values.

It will be interesting to see how they answer you.

Without measures and relativity it is somewhat subjective so will be open to argument in many different ways.

DecentLivingWage

Voters are beginning to ask these questions too - yesterday there was a 'transparency' question in one of the polls - Cameron came out as the most 'fake' - interesting! (particularly with women voters - 49% women ,41% men fav Labour- dont know if i can find it again, will try.)

Moby

Devon_Sailor wrote: »

Hope you dont mind me hopping in, as I thought it a very interesting question of self examination. I'm a Conservative voter. Have been for years and make no bones about it, and yet I too am one of those who feels a little disenfranchised by the current incarnation of Government. I think the problem is that I am old fashioned (despite my age lol). So, what values do I hold which makes me feel that I AM a Tory (talk about setting yourself up - standing by for incoming abuse and vitriol! :rotfl:)

• That citizens don't just have "rights" but also responsibilities, to the country and those around them.
• That the job of the State is to provide essential services (health, education, defence) and not to interfere in the minutiae of daily life. I am an adult and should be trusted to make life choices, and be free to do so as long as they do not impact on the safety or wellbeing of others.
• That the State should provide a safety net for the poorest, most vulnerable and most at risk in society. This is an unquestionable moral imperative.
• That, not withstanding the above, taxation should, where possible be kept low; I am an adult. I should be trusted to make the decisions as to where and how I spend my money.
• That every man, woman and child born in this country should have the best possible chance to better themselves and their prospects through hard work, dedication and perseverance. Good social mobility is, I think, a cornerstone atribute of an enlightened and developed society.
• That it is my personal responsibility to get involved in my community to make it a better place. That can be at any level - either the practical (volunteering, standing as a local Councillor, etc) to the less onerous but no less significant - by casting my vote to try and get the best possible candidate into a job to do the grunt-work on my behalf.

There are others, but I thought I have probably given people enough ammunition to start with....

In short, I think if you believe that as you go through life you want to do the best for your family, that you want to work hard to better your standard of living and to provide the best possible start in life (and assist the future prospects of) your children, and have a social conscience whereby you stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves, then you are an old fashioned, very traditional Disraeli-esque Conservative.

How do members of the forum from the Left define themselves?


D_S

You know what Devon I wouldn't disagree with any of that. Of course the devil is in the detail. Any aspirations of course have to be seen within the reality which surrounds us. I would call myself a democratic socialist:

• No person should exploit any other person. This principle of opposition to exploitation is especially important in labor relations.
• Natural resources should not be exploited or wasted.
• Changes in society and its governments should be made by free and open elections. Thus, democratic socialism ought to be achieved through the ballot box.

Widespread and full public education is essential to guarantee the equality of people. People must have information and be allowed to communicate their ideas.

Public Enterprise in some economic activities is necessary to help people attain economic and social equality. The government should undertake to do for them what people cannot do well for themselves.

Public enterprise leads to the common definition of socialism found in dictionaries: "the public or collective ownership of the means of production and distribution and the democratic management thereof."

Democratic socialists support the principles of democratic collective ownership of the basic means of production and the priniciple of democratic management. Therefore, democratic socialists support not only public ownership, but cooperative ownership of economic functions.

Because Socialists value the principle of equality, persons truly socialist in spirit value democracy as a vital political principle.

Democratic socialists support the idea of democratic public control of those activities which are described as "the commanding heights" of the economy, but do not support the idea of state ownership of every human enterprise.