Suspended During Grievance

Slinky

Think back to when you walked out and 'resigned', you weren't getting anything at all at that point.

zzzLazyDaisy

kelly_borntoshop wrote: »

So if i agree the date (which i dont have a lot of choice) i wont recieve anymore suspension pay? only the months net pay offered from 31st Jan?

kelly_borntoshop wrote: »

he states in the email containing the CA...

"However, if agreement cannot be reached on the terms above we will need to proceed to disciplinary hearing and may need to take any appropriate action arising from that hearing in due course."

kelly_borntoshop wrote: »

these whitness statements from MD, CD and the lad only refer to what is necessary to fire me, they are not detailed.

i know i havent helped myself but i cant help but think its unfair. the compensation or pay due seems to be dwindling away by the day.

Hi Kelly

To answer the points you have raised above....

You have to decide what your priorities are - you can fight for your job, a better financial settlement, or a decent reference. You can't have it all, you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

The issue of the disciplinary is irrelevant if you sign a CA. If the CA falls apart, then we will advise you how to deal with the disciplinary. I am not sure what you expect from the statements though - the employer has concerns about your conduct which it is entitled to raise. The statements are the evidence they will seek to rely on if the disciplinary goes ahead. You will get your opportunity at the disciplinary to say anything you wish to say about the statements, to explain things from your point of view, and to produce any evidence you may have in support of your case. The fact is though, if they are determined to dismiss you, they will do, and you can choose to take them for unfair dismissal. The way things are panning out, you'd have a case on procedural grounds, which is not a guarantee of success, but your prospects of success would be greater than your case would have been if you'd gone for CD, which isn't saying a lot as your chance of success at the time you walked out was pretty much zero.

Or maybe worse, they may decide at the disciplinary not to dismiss you but to give you a final written warning - you keep your job, you continue to work for CD, and you watch your back because they will be looking for any reason to discipline you again and dismiss you (at which point the tribunal has no power to look behind the scenes of the final written warning)

More importantly the tribunal has no power to order a reference, and the reference will follow you around for a long time.

Without an agreed reference, any reference they do give must be honest and factual. An example of an honest and factual reference is 'Kelly worked for us from [date] to [date] when she resigned during the course of an investigation into potential gross misconduct / when she was dismissed for gross misconduct / when her employment was terminated by mutual agreement (which for many employers is code for 'this employee is a trouble maker and we had to do a deal to get rid of her'). Depending on the circumstances of your departure, these are all honest and factual references, which could do you a lot of harm, unless you nail an agreed reference in the CA.

Re the financial settlement, you are right, it is dwindling, and you can probably negotiate this back up by arguing for a later termination date and for the month's wages to be paid gross. You get a few hundred pounds, but they would almost certainly dig their heels in on the reason for termination and insist on 'mutual agreement' and they are much less likely to be accommodating over the reference.

You have to decide what is the most important to you - score points at a disciplinary, get a decent reference even if it means not pursuing a higher payment, or going for a few hundred pounds extra, but taking your chance on a reference that might not be what you would like.

Have a think about it and let me know, so I can phrase your reply to give you the best chance of achieving your objective, whichever it might be.

Unfortunately there will inevitably be an element of compromise, whichever way you jump.

Dx

EDIT: there is a reasonable chance we can get them to up the sols fees, all other things being equal, but it is not the most important item on the agenda

kelly_borntoshop

yes i agree daisy whole heartedly. i had a good old chat to my husband last night, i have been looking at our finances. i think i may look for something part time unless i can get a job in the council or somewhere bigger than another intense job for a small ltd company at the moment.

I think i have decided that there will be more time for my career later when my children arent so young.

this is my first full time employed job since having my first child in 2005. I worked from home for a while as a virtual PA 2009-2011 and before the children i was self employed. The last reference from an employer i have was written in 2001. thats a long time ago and has served me well until now, getting back into the workplace after children, however any employer worth his salt is going to want to hear from my latest employer now.

yes. lets get this reference. i dont want this to follow me it could hurt me forever and stop any chances of employment with the council or other reputable companies. i would be silly to put a few hundred quid above this.

am i on the right track now? trying not to be impulsive or a loose cannon. this has been a valuable lesson learned and at my age not before time. i have also learned about time management and taking on more than i am originally employed to do, also about work/life balance.

ok - now, how do we move forward and put this whole awful saga to bed.

kelly_borntoshop

and if you thought fate didnt play a part haha - the school has just called, my little boy is ill now i have to collect him.

kelly_borntoshop

another thought - since employment terminated 31st Jan, have i lost any claim on my childminders notice this month? i would think so as i am not paying tax? if so theres another £350 i am down.

cant ring them yet either - have to call when employment officially terminates.

zzzLazyDaisy

kelly_borntoshop wrote: »

another thought - since employment terminated 31st Jan, have i lost any claim on my childminders notice this month? i would think so as i am not paying tax? if so theres another £350 i am down.

cant ring them yet either - have to call when employment officially terminates.

I can't give the answer to that, but the termination date is probably negotiable, and since they are wanting to pay you a month net, they might as well pay you through the payroll, call the termination date end feb, and the lump sum for the CA £1000. It is one way to do it if this would leave you better off re WTC. Not saying they'd agree, but if that was the only stumbling block to putting this to bed, they'd be daft not to. Does that help?

I have visitors staying with me at the moment, so won't be around much, but I will have a think about this and come back with a letter for you to use.

Dx

kelly_borntoshop

yeah it would though as you say, they may not coss the lump is un-taxable. but hey ho can only try i guess.

enjoy visitors

zzzLazyDaisy

Hi Kelly, here is a draft letter for you to look at. You need to fill in the blanks (in red).

The first question is a deliberate red herring as you already know the answer. The reason is that they are very likely to refuse to give redundancy as the reason for leaving as that is not the real reason. It is just possible that pointing out the discrepancy between the deemed and actual termination date, might dissuade them from putting that argument about the reason. We'll see, it's worth a punt.

You will also see that I have made the letter a little more formal than the previous one - this is just to give them a clue that you are getting advice, so hopefully they won't mess us about. We can but hope!

If you have any questions or need to make changes to the letter, come back before you finalise it. I will check in later.

Dx

Letter:

Dear FM


I refer to your recent letters. I am considering the compromise agreement, and wish to clarify some points.


Firstly, I am confused by the termination date in the compromise agreement. It states that my employment ended on 31st January. Does this mean that I have already been dismissed? Or does it mean that you want the compromise agreement to state that my employment ended last week, even though this isn't really what happened?



Second, I have been advised that we should agree a reference before involving solicitors. Accordingly, I would like to suggest the following:


“ COLOR=red]Ms Kelly][/COLOR] worked for [COLOR=red][name of company[/COLOR as an [Admin Assistant] from [date] to [date] when her employment ended due to redundancy. During her time with us we found her to be honest, reliable, and hardworking, and we wish her well”



I would also like the reference clause in the compromise agreement to say “The company shall provide on request by a prospective or future employer of [Ms Kelly] a written reference in form attached to this compromise agreement as “Appendix 1” . The company further agrees that it will not add to or amend the said reference, nor shall it enter into any further discussion or correspondence regarding the reference, whether by letter, e-mail, telephone, or otherwise”.


Finally, having spoken briefly to my solicitor, I am advised that their rate for dealing with a compromise agreement is £350 + VAT, and that this has in fact been the accepted rate across the profession for some time. In the circumstances I should be grateful if you would agree to cover the solicitor's full costs of signing off the agreement. I understand that the invoice would be forwarded directly to you for payment.

I do not believe any of the above to be particularly contentious, and would be pleased to receive your positive response as soon as possible in order that this matter might be brought to a speedy conclusion.

Yours sincerely

Kelly

kelly_borntoshop

looks good to me daisy.

the reference, and i understand why, seems so cold doesnt it?

my worry is that because my "admin assistant job" had duties that were really different from the normal admin role and was never allowed a half decent job title - the reference suggests it was a general "admin" type role.

my CV shows the real tasks associated and maybe employers (dependant on job) will want confirmation of that.

is that just a bug i am going to have to bear?

zzzLazyDaisy

Hi Kelly,

Their reference clause says they will give a factual reference. A factual reference does not normally contain any comments or detail at all, and is often as little as

'Ms K was employed by this company from x to y '

So it is a case of getting them to expand without pushing them too far.

Having said that, of course you can ask them to say anything you want, but be aware that the more detailed it gets, the greater the risk of a flat 'no', so you need to be circumspect and to the point.

Let's face it - these people are not your greatest fans, so a glowing reference is probably unlikely to happen.

Dx