Help for a mate

Pobby

A friend of mine, 60, has been given the boot from his company after 26 years. He is a salesman/ rep and their reasoning is he is incaple of his job. He has been messed about with areas he has to cover and finds it hard to meet targets.

At 60 it is not easy to find work. He has been offered a generous not 3 months basic salary. Pretty much nothing as his basic is under 10k a year. He has 2 young kids and a wife who earns very little. It is looking like the company will be employing a replacement.

No mortgage on the plus side yet a wife and 2 young `uns ain`t cheap. He has appealed his dismissal but the new managing director is a not well liked person so I see that not getting far.

Any ideas on his best way forward ? I am concerned for him. Thanks in advance.:money:

RuthnJasper

Just a suspicion, but I wonder if your mate has been booted out because it's cheaper to hire a young school-leaver...?

Well-worth speaking to Citizens' Advice about the redundancy, no matter what the attitude of the manager - if your mate has a case, CAB can advise and at least confirm or deny this: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_discrimination_e/age_discrimination_at_work.htm

Whatever the case there, maybe your friend could look into some evening classes (or a reputable correspondence course) to refresh his skills? 60 is NOT old these days - and I'm sure that there are plenty of firms that would be happy to employ an older person who is likely to be more sensible and less-prone to "boys'-night-out-hangover" or "sh*t-I-accidentally-got-my-girlfriend-pregnant" syndromes.

You could also point him in the direction of the forum at https://www.sagazone.co.uk or https://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.

But the best thing you can do for him is what you are already doing. Support him and continue to reassure him that he is NOT - no way - on the "scrap-heap" at 60. I'm only in my 30s, but have learned enough to know that any worthy organisation needs a blend of older and younger people in order to get the best from everyone.

Good luck to your friend, and to you. x

zzzLazyDaisy

More information needed:

As a salesman, was he self-employed or an employee? This is crucial to what advice can be given regarding his rights.

Ways of identifying his worker status include:

Was he responsible for paying his own tax and NI, or was it deducted through PAYE

Was he registered with HMRC as self-employed, or as an employee (in which case the name of his employer would be identified on his wages slips, P60, and P45)

Did he have a written contract of employment?

(NOTE the above are not legal tests of employee status, but an indication of how the worker and the company viewed the relationship, which is the starting point)

Pobby

Lazy, my friend was employed, paye at source with a written contract. I did the same as him but self employed. When I was given the boot, after a wrangle, I received a 5 fiugure sum in compensation. I had proof that against my wishes, commision had been taken from me. In my case a conditional fee solicitor was engaged.

Tbh, I have strongly urged him to contact the same solicitor. At the momen t he is a bit shell shocked but puting a brave face on it.

Thanks to both of you.

Sycorax

It sounds like the companies reasoning for dismissal is performance, has he been through a disciplinary process, or is this a 'mutually agreed' parting of the ways?

Pobby

Not a mutual parting of ways. Indeed the company had gone through major problems. My friend knuckled down and tgook over a very large area without complaint. How they arrive at sales targets beats me.

They then took on more salesmen and in turn his area was again reduced. The main problem being it is the west country, Wales and the Midlands, all of which are showing a large downturn in shop performance. He sales to shops. Many of those on the area have closed or beedn forced to close.

zzzLazyDaisy

Sorry to sound pedantic, but you did not answer the question.

Did the employer followed its disciplinary procedures and gone through the warnings process? This is crucial to the issue of whether the dismissal was (potentially) fair, or not.

The question of whether money is owing for unpaid commissions, as in your case, is a different issue.

Pobby

Yes it is a different issue. As far as I know the employer did issue warnings and I suspect that did it in the correct fashion.

zzzLazyDaisy

In that case, he is entitled to 12 weeks notice pay (unless his contract stipulates more), plus any outstanding wages, commission, holiday pay.

It might also be worth getting your conditional fee solicitor to look over the papers.

Tribunals are very alert to long service employees being targetted out of the door. Issues to look for are whether he received proper training, whether the warnings were accompanied by support/assistance/mentoring ie were they a genuine attempt to give him an opportunity to improve, or lip service to get him out the door.

If they have followed procedures properly, it is much more difficult to show unfair dismissal, but it is possible that the lawyer may spot something.

Pobby

A little update. A tele sales person contacted one of his customers. It was said that my mate would not be replaced. Surely a case of redundancy?

Sycorax

Not really, it's not unusual for businesses to review the company structure after someone has left the business, regardless of the reason for leaving e.g. resignation or dismissal.

To prove that the position was under risk of redundancy at the time he left you'd have to be able to show that the intent not to replace and that lapsing the postion was being discussed and considered e.g. minutes of meetings etc.
It sounds like that wasn't the company's original position as you say they had informed him they intended to replace. Which I guess would be a matter of record in the minutes of his disciplinary meetings.

Oh and the fact he has a young wife that doesn't earn much and two kids to support isn't the company's problem and wouldn't be relevant or taken into consideration at a tribunal.

I think his best point of call now is to consult a lawyer (as per zzzLazyDaisy's post) with all his evidence ...that'll be evidence not hearsay ....and see if there is a case for unfair dismissal or that it was the intent of the company to make the position redundant.

Based on what you've said I estimate he'd get about £6k stat redundancy plus 12 weeks pay and rations. This isn't a lot of money for a company to put itself through the hassle of a disciplinary process to avoid, so I'm unconvinced it was a redundancy.

Still, it may be worth a punt with a 'no win, no fee' employment lawyer.