Probate

RAS

This thread might be educational https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2251119

The OP has not been back since her last post on this thread.

madbadrob

I think that the only claim you have is to try and prove that the spouse 'forced' her husband into depositing the money into the newly made joint account although I suspect this may be very difficult. Out of interest when was any will made? Was it before the joint account or after? If after then you will have not a leg to stand on as you are accepting that the will was made with his full faculties being there.

As others have said as a joint account holder she could have taken the lot and legally there would be nothing anyone could do.

Rob

Daveckj

madbadrob wrote: »

I think that the only claim you have is to try and prove that the spouse 'forced' her husband into depositing the money into the newly made joint account although I suspect this may be very difficult. Out of interest when was any will made? Was it before the joint account or after? If after then you will have not a leg to stand on as you are accepting that the will was made with his full faculties being there.

As others have said as a joint account holder she could have taken the lot and legally there would be nothing anyone could do.

Rob

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far - very informative. The will was written over 10 years ago - she was aware of the general theme of it not the specifics - as in the house and pension would be left to her and FIL's savings left to his children (my wife and her brother and sister). We know his savings were in excess of £200K but once she got hold of them 18 months ago she only left £40K in FIL's name in the form of a bond and she is claiming that this £40K is the sum total of all his savings.

WE are aware that this type of situation, as mentioned above, often occurs between parents and children who look after their parents interests. For IHT reasons this needs to be declared for probate as the monies in theaccount are the part of the estate and should be shown to have be spent in the interests of the deceased. However, when a similar situation occurs between spouses the probate office often turn a blind eye to it and usually settle with the declaration of 50% of the balance at the time of death. However, our solicitors contends the law is the same in this situation whether the probate office let it slide or not. The monies should be used for the welfare of the deceased otherwise they are a gift and need to be declared as such - therefore the balance at the point at which my mother in law was put onto the account should be declared. Mothers solicitors says that is not so.

The bit I am struggling with here is that say my FIL 24 months ago (prior to my mother in law being added to the account) had for example given me £30K surely that would have to be declared as a gift? In order to know if that type of thing had taken place we would need to see HIS bank statements?

Who the hell does this to their own kids? Why is she so keen to hide the amount my wife's Dad had?

Head hurts!

Tuesday_Tenor

Daveckj wrote: »

In order to know if that type of thing had taken place we would need to see HIS bank statements?

Yes, the Executor should be looking at his bank statements for gifts, evidence of dependents etc.

You've mentioned two solicitors, but I don't think you answered an earlier question:

Who is the Executor?

getmore4less

I think you miss a point it is not upto the probate office to check the accounts their job is to check the executor/administrator is who they say they are and the will is valid.

HMRC might become interested if there is IHT due.
As it currently stands there is none so the IHT forms it makes little diffeence where it ends up, gift or asset it still gets the spouse exemption..

If you want the money back into the estate so you distribute you will have to persue this no one else will do it for you.

Daveckj

Tuesday_Tenor wrote: »

Yes, the Executor should be looking at his bank statements for gifts, evidence of dependents etc.

You've mentioned two solicitors, but I don't think you answered an earlier question:

Who is the Executor?

Thanks all sorry for delay in replying to this thread. The executors are My wife, her sister and her mum (MIL).

Thanks GMFL. I understand the point to you make,we are not sure IF his estate is below the IHT threshold at this stage as we don't actually know what it is although I guess it looks like he has left it to the MIL by installing her on the account 18months ago - we also for example think he gave his son £20,000 about 2 years ago which is clearly a gift. Should we just ignore this and hope HMRC don't ever get wind of it under the assumption that his 200K savings couple of ISA,s and his 50% stake in the house keep him below the IHT threshold anyway?

Cheers all.

getmore4less

If the wife gets the house it is not included for IHT purposes it comes under spouse exemption.

What you need is thet total of all assets NOT going to the wife or have some other exemption like charity donation.

This include gifts you know about in the previous 7 years that don't come from the usual gift exemptions. Gifts to wife get the spouse exemption.

Remember most executors find the gifts by trawling bank accounts and asking people how thorough an executor will be is definately variable.

Get the forms, do a trial run se what drops into the IHT box.

Daveckj

getmore4less wrote: »

If the wife gets the house it is not included for IHT purposes it comes under spouse exemption.

What you need is thet total of all assets NOT going to the wife or have some other exemption like charity donation.

This include gifts you know about in the previous 7 years that don't come from the usual gift exemptions. Gifts to wife get the spouse exemption.

Remember most executors find the gifts by trawling bank accounts and asking people how thorough an executor will be is definately variable.

Get the forms, do a trial run see what drops into the IHT box.

Ok thanks for that. We have just found the following in the guidance notes 'If an account is in joint names for convenience and the deceased provided all the money in the account, you should treat the account as if it was in the deceased’s sole name.'

There is also a quote about calculating the contribution towards joint accounts it is not simply a 50/50 split but should represent the contribution made to the monies in the account i.e if you only contributed 10% then only 10% should be added for IHT purposes - but if you contributed 100% then that should be the amount added. You can then indicate whether or not it should be exempt from IHT and for what reason - given to spouse, charity etc. But from my understanding it still should be 'accounted' for exempt or not.

All the above ties in almost word for word with the advice our solicitor gave us. We now have it in black and white from the HMRC. They also state that Bank accounts should be looked at back over the past 7 years to see if any other 'gifts' were made from the account. My FIL liked things done properly and above board. This is exactly what my wife intends to do.

Thanks for all the help :beer:

getmore4less

At the end of the day the accounting on the forms makes no difference to the end result of where the money ends up.

Bottom line is do you want this money back into the estate or not.

getmore4less

was digging around the HMRC manual for something else to do with gifts found this.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ihtmanual/IHTM15060.htm