Leasehold Property - Can I keep a cat

Ivana_Tinkle

Please don't mention the other cat to the freeholder! Just imagine if they don't have permission for it and had to get rid of it.

2sides2everystory

Yes I wouldn't stress - almost all leases on flats built over the last 25 years have such a clause I would expect but unless there were elaborate communal gardens and cats were seen roaming and doing their business where they liked I don't think it is a problem.

You could easily be talking about where we live. There's a young cat sits in the window opposite me - sweet little thing - it misses nothing from a passing seagull to me opening my kitchen blind in the morning or the squirrel making off with the conkers! His head seems to be on one of those elastic 360 degree necks!

Nah, it's dogs which are high maintenance and can be noisy of course and their owners are often high maintenance too - most of the townie dog owner's have this idea that a "walk" is to the nearest patch of communal grass and you hang around texting your mate or your office with your phone in one hand and a plastic bag in the other which says "don't you dare tell me I can't let my dog do this because can't you see I have a plastic bag" until whatever was on the end of the lead has finished doing some kind of struggle and dance. Never mind that in the summer the Mums and toddlers will be out enjoying the same grass none the wiser

Your solicitor has to recommend the action he has taken as you never know whether there might be some current crack-down (usually not by the freeholder directly if it is just a large and remote freeholder) but perhaps in testing cases where it has all got out of hand, an attempted crack-down might come from the public-spirited blocks management company which on larger developments is often run by elected representatives from amongst the residents who are just trying to keep costs reasonable via the service charge they are tasked to manage to help the community get along without too much kerfuffle from one year to the next.

I would guess that with a smaller block and more direct involvement by the freeholder (as opposed to a resident run management co), the more important it would be for you to correctly guage tolerance of pets before you move in. Otherwise who do you imagine will actually try to make trouble about a cat that never goes out? I am sure it'll be fine.

In larger developments there's constantly always some leasehold-owners in technical breach of the lease to some degree whether it be the wrong types of vehicles in the car park or installing wood flooring where your downstairs neighbour then hears every step you make, or regularly having the tv on too loud late at night, or putting rubbish out on the wrong days, but I think most developments seem to rub along ok even those where a large proportion of the actual residents might never have seen the lease because they are short term tenants to a BTL landlord who never seems to pass on any of the dos and don'ts when his tenants change every six months! Funny that - you'd think they'd spell it out to every one, wouldn't you? Maybe not if quick and continuous bucks is the name of the game !

I think actually there are more important things to get right than the cat question if this is your first purchase of a leasehold flat. How many years are left on the lease? If it is below about 83 years then you need to be advised very carefully. Are the service charges and ground rents well documented and properly accounted up to date? Do you understand that even with a modest £250K flat you could be immediately into having to pay £150 a month in service charges alone and sometimes worse if the service charges have not been well managed lately and they are playing catch-up.

Don't be fobbed off by your solicitor when he says he's managed to get some information but not all of it. The seller will have received a constant flow of documentation to back up the service charge demands and if it is well run, there should be such things as management company AGM minutes and service charge budget figures going back to year dot. One of the biggest service charge expenses on a block of flats is the external redecorations which are supposed to be done regularly before the paint falls off and other things start to rot and drop off. It could easily cost £2,000 per flat even if you have few windows because of the necessity for expensive scaffolding to reach upper floors and even though you are ground floor, your lease will almost certainly cause you to be sharing those inflated costs that may arise every 5 years or sooner. Is there money in the kitty for the next one or will they have to suddenly hit you with a massive service charge increase to cover it?

Who in fact is the landlord organisation (Google their name alongside words like "complaint", fraud, crooked and see if anything drops out). Look them up on the companieshouse.co.uk website. then Google their postcode and see if any associate names drop out. Is there a managing agent who is paid like propertyman to do the day to day management on behalf of the landlord or the residents management company? Google their name in the same way - a number of big managing agents have turned out to be owned by large nasty freeholder organisations - consequently they have been found to be running with a hidden agenda and may both be out to fleece you if you don't do your research and steer clear of their part of the monopoly board.

Probably the best situation is either where a majority group of residents got together and already bought the freehold (as is their right if they can get their act together - few groups do) or where a "Right To Manage" has been exercised by the residents as a group which gives them control over buildings insurance for example which is probably the biggest rip-off of the lot and you pay it via your service charge.

It might be worth visiting on a weekend and seeing if you can drum up a conversation or two with some residents to ask how the place is managed. Do remember that many won't know if they are just renting from a leasehold-owner, so you may need to spend a morning wandering round and being chatty (don't mention the cat!)

Never mind the cat, are you really sure you want to buy a lease? It'll be an eye opener, that's for sure :eek:

Of course tens of thousands in the UK do do it every year - the whole scene should have been reformed and severely regulated years ago but too many politicians are linked to property investment interests, some larger than others - many see it as one of the perks of the job from the day they first get elected as a local councillor. Other types of politician believe it works just fine - they see it as an idealogical thing - the "businessmen need to be able to see their way to how to get rich quick - all regulation stifles business!" types

Anyway, I hope you see your way clear to making sure this particular flat is a sound investment and not a drain on your wallet, and once you have done that then I am sure you will be able to enjoy the remaining years left in your cat blissfully uninterrupted!

G_M

BigG10 wrote: »

But the point is - we saw ANOTHER cat in another flat when viewing the one we put an offer in on.

Our cat is staying in the FLAT not in the common areas. He won't even venture into the garden.

Its a two bedroom ground floor property. Our puss is 15 years old and has always been a house cat and never been outside. He has a dodgy leg so would actually be in danger going outside. Risk of foxes etc.

Also, I do believe that having a cat in a flat is completely reasonable. I am under no circumstances about to spend 250k on a property and blow a lot of savings on a place where I am not able to gain enjoyment from the place! Especially as the cat was given to us through inheritance. I hope our freeholder will be reasonable. I know some out there just aren't!! They appear to just be out to make money which is very sad in this day and age.

I can understand refusal of a dog or puppy. Noise is a big issue and I also happen to think its cruel to keep a large dog in a flat!

I don't understand - there's little point explaining to and trying to persuade US. You've received various explanations of what the rules are, why they are there, how/whether there are implemented, and what might happen.

But as I sad before, "trying to 2nd-guess the freeholder is impossible. "

You could get unanimous responses from everyone here telling you how reasonable your request is given your explanation, but that does not alter the fact that the lease prohibits pets without permission, and only the freeholder can give you permission!

propertyman

"my Cat my Dog my Chickens will never be a problem-ergo the landlord is being unreasonable".

For any number of well behaved pets and considerate pet owners there are the exceptions. The landlord is in no position to judge and has to be take an objectve and protective view.

Many realising its an emotive issue and that enforcing the terms of the lease are expensive and far from certain they become pet blind only seeing a problem when it occurs.

What the landlord needs do is be reasonable in considering an application not find reasons that are reasonable to refuse.

Real life cases

1 : Cat and owners perfectly pleasant however Cat insists on doing the loo outside on the balcony spraying others nearby. In another Cat is quite friendly and clean but insists on hopping in every open window or straying into ground floor flats, & as a Tom sprays to mark it's territory. Can you requre the Cat to be neutered or shut inside if its natural inclination is to roam ( and not a house cat)?

2: Dog owners with a large communal garden and with a dog toilet area which is well used. However if anyone comes near the children it becomes protective and aggressive putting off others using the garden. Hard to train a dog the difference between someone catching a frisbee or retrieving a ball and an attacker.

When consent is given under a lease the landlord has a duty to the other occupiers and often a contractual responsibility to them. They are and have been partly liable for the actions of the pet or owner where they have been found lacking in the process.

So much for reforming Leaseholds......its a difficult and expensive task.

BigG10

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Yes I wouldn't stress - almost all leases on flats built over the last 25 years have such a clause I would expect but unless there were elaborate communal gardens and cats were seen roaming and doing their business where they liked I don't think it is a problem.

You could easily be talking about where we live. There's a young cat sits in the window opposite me - sweet little thing - it misses nothing from a passing seagull to me opening my kitchen blind in the morning or the squirrel making off with the conkers! His head seems to be on one of those elastic 360 degree necks!

Nah, it's dogs which are high maintenance and can be noisy of course and their owners are often high maintenance too - most of the townie dog owner's have this idea that a "walk" is to the nearest patch of communal grass and you hang around texting your mate or your office with your phone in one hand and a plastic bag in the other which says "don't you dare tell me I can't let my dog do this because can't you see I have a plastic bag" until whatever was on the end of the lead has finished doing some kind of struggle and dance. Never mind that in the summer the Mums and toddlers will be out enjoying the same grass none the wiser

Your solicitor has to recommend the action he has taken as you never know whether there might be some current crack-down (usually not by the freeholder directly if it is just a large and remote freeholder) but perhaps in testing cases where it has all got out of hand, an attempted crack-down might come from the public-spirited blocks management company which on larger developments is often run by elected representatives from amongst the residents who are just trying to keep costs reasonable via the service charge they are tasked to manage to help the community get along without too much kerfuffle from one year to the next.

I would guess that with a smaller block and more direct involvement by the freeholder (as opposed to a resident run management co), the more important it would be for you to correctly guage tolerance of pets before you move in. Otherwise who do you imagine will actually try to make trouble about a cat that never goes out? I am sure it'll be fine.

In larger developments there's constantly always some leasehold-owners in technical breach of the lease to some degree whether it be the wrong types of vehicles in the car park or installing wood flooring where your downstairs neighbour then hears every step you make, or regularly having the tv on too loud late at night, or putting rubbish out on the wrong days, but I think most developments seem to rub along ok even those where a large proportion of the actual residents might never have seen the lease because they are short term tenants to a BTL landlord who never seems to pass on any of the dos and don'ts when his tenants change every six months! Funny that - you'd think they'd spell it out to every one, wouldn't you? Maybe not if quick and continuous bucks is the name of the game !

I think actually there are more important things to get right than the cat question if this is your first purchase of a leasehold flat. How many years are left on the lease? If it is below about 83 years then you need to be advised very carefully. Are the service charges and ground rents well documented and properly accounted up to date? Do you understand that even with a modest £250K flat you could be immediately into having to pay £150 a month in service charges alone and sometimes worse if the service charges have not been well managed lately and they are playing catch-up.

Don't be fobbed off by your solicitor when he says he's managed to get some information but not all of it. The seller will have received a constant flow of documentation to back up the service charge demands and if it is well run, there should be such things as management company AGM minutes and service charge budget figures going back to year dot. One of the biggest service charge expenses on a block of flats is the external redecorations which are supposed to be done regularly before the paint falls off and other things start to rot and drop off. It could easily cost £2,000 per flat even if you have few windows because of the necessity for expensive scaffolding to reach upper floors and even though you are ground floor, your lease will almost certainly cause you to be sharing those inflated costs that may arise every 5 years or sooner. Is there money in the kitty for the next one or will they have to suddenly hit you with a massive service charge increase to cover it?

Who in fact is the landlord organisation (Google their name alongside words like "complaint", fraud, crooked and see if anything drops out). Look them up on the companieshouse.co.uk website. then Google their postcode and see if any associate names drop out. Is there a managing agent who is paid like propertyman to do the day to day management on behalf of the landlord or the residents management company? Google their name in the same way - a number of big managing agents have turned out to be owned by large nasty freeholder organisations - consequently they have been found to be running with a hidden agenda and may both be out to fleece you if you don't do your research and steer clear of their part of the monopoly board.

Probably the best situation is either where a majority group of residents got together and already bought the freehold (as is their right if they can get their act together - few groups do) or where a "Right To Manage" has been exercised by the residents as a group which gives them control over buildings insurance for example which is probably the biggest rip-off of the lot and you pay it via your service charge.

It might be worth visiting on a weekend and seeing if you can drum up a conversation or two with some residents to ask how the place is managed. Do remember that many won't know if they are just renting from a leasehold-owner, so you may need to spend a morning wandering round and being chatty (don't mention the cat!)

Never mind the cat, are you really sure you want to buy a lease? It'll be an eye opener, that's for sure :eek:

Of course tens of thousands in the UK do do it every year - the whole scene should have been reformed and severely regulated years ago but too many politicians are linked to property investment interests, some larger than others - many see it as one of the perks of the job from the day they first get elected as a local councillor. Other types of politician believe it works just fine - they see it as an idealogical thing - the "businessmen need to be able to see their way to how to get rich quick - all regulation stifles business!" types

Anyway, I hope you see your way clear to making sure this particular flat is a sound investment and not a drain on your wallet, and once you have done that then I am sure you will be able to enjoy the remaining years left in your cat blissfully uninterrupted!

THEE most helpful post ever!!!!!! :T:T:T:T

Our solicitor has raised all the points above with us. Are you sure you aren't our solicitor??

Freeholder now wants to charge a considerable sum to the sellers (leaseholders) to proceed the sale. :mad:

I feel very bad for them but they would have to pay the costs with any buyer - not just us! Our solicitor has posed 24 questions about the lease so far.

2sides2everystory

BigG10 wrote: »

Our solicitor has raised all the points above with us. Are you sure you aren't our solicitor??

I am sure - no solicitor could survive in business writing blocks of ranting text as big and as often as I might

More likely your solicitor has also owned a lease on a flat and lived to tell a tale or two

Glad you found some useful stuff in my post.