self employment and working for an agency - advice please

BigAunty

Own_My_Own wrote: »

I am a self- employed cleaner. Up until recently I topped up my hours working for an agency in the evenings.

The people I clean for employ me to do this.

They all sign a letter stating what hours I work for them and how much they pay me.

I need these letter for housing.

I have never had to prove my hours for WTC or CTC. I simply ring them with my income total for the year.

I also fill in a tax return every year.

A letter from your clients seems a bit amateur, though I'm not particularly knowledgeable about how local councils process self employed accounts to work out benefits. Is this a template that the local council issue to you or one that they demand you submit?

Why do you not prove your income to the local council with the invoices you submit, the contracts that you hold with your clients, bank statements/receipts? That's how most businesses operate in terms of absolutely basic record keeping for the truly self employed.

Letters?!

Own_My_Own

BigAunty wrote: »

A letter from your clients seems a bit amateur, though I'm not particularly knowledgeable about how local councils process self employed accounts to work out benefits. Is this a template that the local council issue to you or one that they demand you submit?

Why do you not prove your income to the local council with the invoices you submit, the contracts that you hold with your clients, bank statements/receipts? That's how most businesses operate in terms of absolutely basic record keeping for the truly self employed.

Letters?!

Because they are happy with a letter. Why should I show more when not needed.

I do show my bank statements when they ask for them. This has happened twice in 6 years.

BigAunty

Own_My_Own wrote: »

I must say this forum is a very strange place. There is another thread having a go at people for not doing more hours and finding better paid jobs. And this one saying its Ok to work for under the NMW to get benefits.

Nothing contradictory at all in a forum with a myriad of opinions.

I personally believe that benefit claimants should work more hours to qualify for benefits than takes place now. That's my opinion. It is getting changed under UC which is why I mentioned this to the OP. I have expressed this on the Discussion Time forum which discusses opinions

I also personally believe in answering benefit queries, as opposed to benefit policy matters, with facts. This particular forum asks that we are not judgemental and just answer specific benefit related questions - that's the rules on this forum, though people do stray into their beliefs rather than provide objective information and that's a shame, as it intimidates the posters here.

And the fact is that the self employed are exempt from minimum wage legislation as I proved which is opposite to your 'belief' in how it operates.

Now, personally I do not believe the self employed should work for less than the NMW though this is understandable during the start up phase of a new business. But I am trying to follow the forum etiquette on this benefit board and that's why I didn't offer my opinion.

I hope that this clarifies matters - this forum shouldn't be for opinions and judgement, just that people go off topic. It's possible to be a critic of the massively flawed benefits system and still offer sound advice on how it operates.

BigAunty

Own_My_Own wrote: »

Because they are happy with a letter. Why should I show more when not needed.

I do show my bank statements when they ask for them. This has happened twice in 6 years.

I'm not criticising, honestly. I'm just surprised at the informality of the council's requirements, I just expected them to seek more of the kinds of documentation that businesses should naturally generate - profit/loss sheets, invoices, contracts, statements and not just a quick letter dashed off between the parties. Thanks for clarifying.

Own_My_Own

I can understand a self employed person starting a business working for under NMW, but I doubt it would be believed in the case of the Op.

She will be (like myself) working a set amount of hours a week for the same person/ persons.

She is not trying to build a business in that scene . She ( again like myself) would have a hourly rate for her services. If the (business) took off she would have unrealistic rate.
Most business like that spread though word of mouth.

The Op also needs to look at the fact she may be classed as a Child Minder (baby sitting) and need checks done.

ETA - It is also advisable to have ins when working in somebodies house. The friend may not be that friendly if something gets broken.

BigAunty

Yes, there's a danger that she could fall foul of the HMRC guidelines for defining true self employment but at least she can see if she is and takes steps to make sure this is not ambiguous, from the links I supplied.

For example, perhaps when she's worked a bit for her friend, she could drop the hours down there, and pick up another client. Her contracts with her clients may just list the tasks that she must accomplish rather than 'clean for x hours' - certainly with my cleaner she just quoted a sum to clean the whole house, we didn't specify hours per se. I don't know, really. It's just more research that the OP must do. Presumably her customers are bound to be in employment - they might not specify specific hours but just tell her when it's not convenient?

Perhaps within 6 months, she'll have 5 customers paying her £10 an hour for 4 hours of cleaning/housekeeping and start turning over £200 a week for 20 hours per week and start paying more of her own rent, council tax and so on.

Employment status: basic checks to help you decide

You can usually work out your employment status by asking a few straightforward questions.
You are probably self-employed if you:

• run your own business and take responsibility for its success or failure
• have several customers at the same time
• can decide how, when and where you do your work
• are free to hire other people to do the work for you or help you at your own expense
• provide the main items of equipment to do your work

You are probably employed if you:

• have to do the work yourself
• work for one person at a time, who is in charge of what you do and takes on the risks of the business
• can be told how, when and where you do your work
• have to work a set amount of hours
• are paid a regular amount according to the hours you work, and get paid for working overtime - even if you do casual or part-time work, you can still be employed

Own_My_Own

BigAunty wrote: »

Yes, there's a danger that she could fall foul of the HMRC guidelines for defining true self employment but at least she can see if she is and takes steps to make sure this is not ambiguous, from the links I supplied.

For example, perhaps when she's worked a bit for her friend, she could drop the hours down there, and pick up another client. Her contracts with her clients may just list the tasks that she must accomplish rather than 'clean for x hours' - certainly with my cleaner she just quoted a sum to clean the whole house, we didn't specify hours per se. I don't know, really. It's just more research that the OP must do. Presumably her customers are bound to be in employment - they might not specify specific hours but just tell her when it's not convenient?

Perhaps within 6 months, she'll have 5 customers paying her £10 an hour for 4 hours of cleaning/housekeeping and start turning over £200 a week for 20 hours per week and start paying more of her own rent, council tax and so on.

She would at present need to put ' cleans for x hours' to prove she was doing the 16 required.

lauram25

oh man im very confused now lol.

so am i correct in thinking (judging by the recent comments) that as i would only be working for one person at the minute and doing a set amount of hours that is not classed as self employed? which confuses me as if i didnt declare myself self employed then it would simply be cash in hand as the lady wouldnt be paying my tax or any national insurance contributions.

lauram25

and for the record, im not doing it to simply get benefits, im trying to get off of them but as i cant find a job that is 16 hours plus and fits in with my childcare options, this is all i can do a the minute.