self employment and working for an agency - advice please

lauram25

Hiya all,

i feel like ive been on here so much asking for advice lately !

right here goes, il try to keep it simple. im a single parent signing on with one child and am desperate to go back to work. ive recently come across a job as a home care assistant and have been invited to interview.

The only thing is they said im only likely to get around 8 hours a week due to the fact i cannot do evening and weekends. I realise that i cannot sign off on this amount of hours as i need to be working 16 hours to get WTC.

so i was thinking that i could go self employed to make up the rest of the weekly hours. I have a mum at my daughters school who asked me before to go some housework, babysitting and ironing for her but couldnt afford to pay much and wanted me to do it cash in hand kind of thing. obviously i didnt do it as im signing on and last thing i need is being caught for benefit fraud ! but now im thinking i could tie both jobs in together - i could do my 8 hours with the agency and do the other 8 hours a week for the mum at the school.

is this possible?

also she was only offering to pay me around £40 a week which is £5 per hour so below minimum wage, but would that matter as id be self employed doing it?

i really need some advice regarding this.

thanks all

laura millward

BigAunty

If you are self employed, the NMW legislation does not apply. A claimant can have a mix of self and conventional employment.

Do read up on the HMRC site about self employment and WTC so you know the full info on record keeping, the criteria for receiving WTC. They should have info on SE and WTC on their site.

But note that under the move to the Universal Credit system, there is an expectation that the self employed can earn at least the NMW from their businesses - the govt want to wean the self employed off long-term benefit dependence. So do read up about SE and UC.

Not a big problem - with a bit of experience and a positive reference from your friend, you should find it much easier to bill your time out at commercial rates - £8, £10, £12 per hour, whatever the local rate is for a private cleaner/house keeper in your area.

lauram25

ok thanks for that advice i really appreciate it, i did read up a bit on it but obviously a lot of information to take in at once and im new to all of this.

i could always build my rates up once im established, at the moment shes kind of offering it to me just to help me out with building my hours to meet WTC criteria.

i just wanted to know if it was possible and now i need to look into how i prove to WTC im working 16 hours a week (if i even get the job!).

thanks x

Own_My_Own

lauram25 wrote: »

ok thanks for that advice i really appreciate it, i did read up a bit on it but obviously a lot of information to take in at once and im new to all of this.

i could always build my rates up once im established, at the moment shes kind of offering it to me just to help me out with building my hours to meet WTC criteria.

i just wanted to know if it was possible and now i need to look into how i prove to WTC im working 16 hours a week (if i even get the job!).

thanks x

Do you rent your home ?

She would need to pay you at least min wage.

Housing will need to know your income to work out your benefit. They will not except anything under min wage.

To proof your self employment wage you just need a written letter from any employers .

lauram25

Own_My_Own wrote: »

Do you rent your home ?

She would need to pay you at least min wage.

Housing will need to know your income to work out your benefit. They will not except anything under min wage.

To proof your self employment wage you just need a written letter from any employers .

yes i rent my home and i would be working around 8 hours a week for an agency and then the other 8 hours self employed.

so even though the employer would be paying me minimum wage, the lady who would be employing me on a self employed basis would also need to be paying me minimum wage in order to receive housing benefit top up?

BigAunty

Own_My_Own wrote: »

...

She would need to pay you at least min wage.

....

She isn't her employer and the cleaner is not her employee. But that does remind me - the OP should look at the HMRC website to understand how they look at the types of conditions, activities, contracts, etc, to determine if someone is truly self employed.

It's just that some unscrupulous employers or ignorant employees define themselves as self employed when in fact, all that it is a contrived to get around tax/NI, employee benefits, employment law, etc. The HMRC don't take kindly to this type of tax/NI/employee rights evasion. They have specific pages to help people identify if they are self employed.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/intro/empstatus.htm



https://www.gov.uk/your-right-to-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage

Not entitled to the minimum wage

The following types of workers aren’t entitled to the minimum wage:

• self-employed people
• company directors

BigAunty

Own_My_Own wrote: »

....

Housing will need to know your income to work out your benefit. They will not except anything under min wage.

....

Housing benefit is based on income - NMW is not a criteria to receive HB. The self employed whose incomes are below NMW and even loss making are entitled to HB if they meet the other conditions. There is no 'minimum income' when it comes to HB.

However, the local council will also publish info on how the self employed person has to submit their income. Some things accepted by the HMRC on a tax return as a valid business expense may not necessarily be accepted by the local council but the local council should publish info on this (to the OP - Hackney council have a good general guide to applying for HB when self employed).

Own_My_Own

BigAunty wrote: »

She isn't her employer and the cleaner is not her employee. But that does remind me - the OP should look at the HMRC website to understand how they look at the types of conditions, activities, contracts, etc, to determine if someone is truly self employed.

It's just that some unscrupulous employers or ignorant employees define themselves as self employed when in fact, all that it is a contrived to get around tax/NI, employee benefits, employment law, etc. The HMRC don't take kindly to this type of tax/NI/employee rights evasion. They have specific pages to help people identify if they are self employed.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/intro/empstatus.htm



https://www.gov.uk/your-right-to-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage

Not entitled to the minimum wage

The following types of workers aren’t entitled to the minimum wage:

• self-employed people
• company directors

I am a self- employed cleaner. Up until recently I topped up my hours working for an agency in the evenings.

The people I clean for employ me to do this.

They all sign a letter stating what hours I work for them and how much they pay me.

I need these letter for housing.

I have never had to prove my hours for WTC or CTC. I simply ring them with my income total for the year.

I also fill in a tax return every year.

Own_My_Own

BigAunty wrote: »

Housing benefit is based on income - NMW is not a criteria to receive HB. The self employed whose incomes are below NMW and even loss making are entitled to HB if they meet the other conditions. There is no 'minimum income' when it comes to HB.

However, the local council will also publish info on how the self employed person has to submit their income. Some things accepted by the HMRC on a tax return as a valid business expense may not necessarily be accepted by the local council but the local council should publish info on this (to the OP - Hackney council have a good general guide to applying for HB when self employed).

Maybe not, but I very much doubt they would believe some-one who said they was working for less. They could well investigate that they were not doing extra hours cash in hand.

BigAunty

Own_My_Own wrote: »

Maybe not, but I very much doubt they would believe some-one who said they was working for less. They could well investigate that they were not doing extra hours cash in hand.

Well, that would be a pointless investigation - the onus is on the authorities to prove their assumptions and if the OP does not work in the black economy, their investigation cannot procede without proof. I'm not disputing that each council and authority has fraud experts just that it's one thing to have a suspicion and the other to actually get to a successful prosecution.

Own_My_Own

BigAunty wrote: »

Well, that would be a pointless investigation - the onus is on the authorities to prove their assumptions and if the OP does not work in the black economy, their investigation cannot procede without proof. I'm not disputing that each council and authority has fraud experts just that it's one thing to have a suspicion and the other to actually get to a successful prosecution.

I must say this forum is a very strange place. There is another thread having a go at people for not doing more hours and finding better paid jobs. And this one saying its Ok to work for under the NMW to get benefits.