IP rating for combi boiler over toilet with shattaf/bidet shower

jamesd

What are the IP requirements if mounting a combi boiler over a toilet that has a shattaf/bidet shower with it? I'm considering both and don't want to end up with a pairing that isn't viable. Would a cupboard around the combi do the job of making it a "different room" to deal with this? I'm mainly wondering if the fairly readily available IPx5 combis will be fine without an enclosing cupboard.

Why? The combi will be less than a meter horizontally from the kitchen sink and a couple or three from the shower in the bathroom so it'll be very responsive. The kitchen is very short of wall space and the best place in there will add at least 4m to all runs in the flat compared to the bathroom. Bathroom gets me one extra kitchen cupboard as well.

southcoastrgi

I have no idea what a IPx5 combi is, the boiler & it's electrics need to be enclosed in a cupboard

jamesd

An IPX5 combi is one that meets the electrical ingress protection requirements for zone two, being able to withstand low pressure jets of water from any direction, without the need for a surrounding additional enclosure.

Not a problem to build an enclosure around it and if I end up with conflicting answers that'll just tell me that to avoid hassle I might was well do it even if it's not strictly needed.

southcoastrgi

thats what might be needed for ipx5 but as far as i know such a thing doesn't exist which is why i said i don't know what one is, maybe you can point us in the direction of these "readily available" combi's

SJshah

I'm no expert, but I think IPx4 would be sufficient. You won't be using the bidet spray anywhere outside the toilet, right?

Could always go for a IPx5 rated one to be cautious, but realistically its not needed.

keystone

A boiler is a Class 1 electrical device. It requires appropriate protection. You need to consult the man who will install it for you NOT in a place like this. Some manufacturers claim Zone 2 but firstly any kind of mechanical timer is verboten and secondly it's very much a matter of personal judgement for the installer as to whether he can meet regs or not and sign it off. Don't forget he is the one who can go to prison not you.

Personally I think the idea is absolute bonkers anyway. Boiler will be fine in Zone 3 as long as its electrics conform. If you don't need the sharaf shower for religious reasons then dump the idea or go for one with a fixed upwards pointing head. Bidets are so very passe these days anyway.

Cheers

keystone

SJshah wrote: »

I'm no expert, but I think IPx4 would be sufficient. You won't be using the bidet spray anywhere outside the toilet, right?

Could always go for a IPx5 rated one to be cautious, but realistically its not needed.

Then why post such unmitigated rubbish? Sorry if that appears rude but theres a significant safety issue involved here.

Cheers

jamesd

southcoastrgi wrote: »

thats what might be needed for ipx5 but as far as i know such a thing doesn't exist which is why i said i don't know what one is, maybe you can point us in the direction of these "readily available" combi's

Have a look at the Baxi range. Say the Neta-tec types which are rated at IPX5D (get tech spec sheet from the link there), but I don't recall seeing any of their range that wasn't IPX5 rated.

SJshah wrote: »

I'm no expert, but I think IPx4 would be sufficient. You won't be using the bidet spray anywhere outside the toilet, right? ... Could always go for a IPx5 rated one to be cautious, but realistically its not needed.

Several issues with that. Staring with what many installers will flat out refuse to do, saying it's illegal to install any boiler in the bathroom, not mentioning the enclosure option and maybe not knowing that IPX5 boilers even exist. And that's even before knowing that a shattaf might be mounted below the boiler.

Then there's the issue of me not wanting to get me or anyone else killed. IPX4 protects only against splashing water and a shattaf produces a sustained jet of water. I will assume that someone who knows nothing about electrical safety will point it at the bottom of the boiler or all over it for "thorough cleaning" sometime and get themselves killed unless an RCBO saves them. An RCBO or other residual current protection form is also mandatory now for such an installation but things fail or sometimes get bypassed and relying on a last resort is not a good idea.

Maybe you've never seen electrical silliness but my mother once used a pair of all, only metal scissors to cut through and remove an untidy spur cable running exposed up a niche wall in a dining room, installed many years before by my father. After the initial bang a standard fuse may have saved her life. She apparently didn't know it was the supply line to a socket in a previously unconnected bedroom and didn't even turn any power off anywhere.

Then there are the actual regulations which I think prohibit a mains voltage IPX4 device within three metres of the main shower/bath location because of the safety issue. Which means it should be impossible to find any installer who would be willing to do the work.

Even if an installer was willing to do it, I would not want to have an unenclosed IPX4 or lower boiler in this location. It's just not that hard to build an enclosure around the sort of small boiler that a flat needs or just buy a kitchen cabinet and use that for a suitable boiler.

keystone wrote: »

A boiler is a Class 1 electrical device. It requires appropriate protection. You need to consult the man who will install it for you NOT in a place like this. Some manufacturers claim Zone 2 but firstly any kind of mechanical timer is verboten and secondly it's very much a matter of personal judgement for the installer as to whether he can meet regs or not and sign it off. Don't forget he is the one who can go to prison not you.

One local gave me the answer that it's not allowed to install any boiler in a bathroom, an answer I know to be wrong based on past discussions. That was before a shattaf was mentioned - I wasn't considering one at the time. I didn't ask another, but will do.

So what I'm after here is what a shattaf might add in the way of extra constraints from the regs and learning what is sensible to do to reduce hassle, as well as what the actual regs require at minimum. At least then I'll know what is a preference of an installer and what's required and be able to have some idea of what I should do to reduce hassle to get it done. Or maybe whether it's so unlikely that an installer will be willing to put even an enclosed IPX5 boiler in a bathroom that I should give up on the idea even without a shattaf present.

keystone wrote: »

Personally I think the idea is absolute bonkers anyway. Boiler will be fine in Zone 3 as long as its electrics conform. If you don't need the sharaf shower for religious reasons then dump the idea or go for one with a fixed upwards pointing head. Bidets are so very passe these days anyway.

Yes, that's an alternative possibility. There are some plain upward directed nozzles that might be used instead of a shattaf. I don't have a religious reason for it, just an interest because it's a way of reducing a particular problem. But before I go with it I want to know what I'm letting myself in for in the way of extra hassle and cost and what a sensible solution looks like - which may well include things like your suggestion - thanks!

keystone

Don't forget as well that you could be breaking Water Regs if you try and install one of these:



on the end of a hose such that it can be accidentally dropped into the loo pan. Its a syphonage issue.

Cheers

PS Bit late now. Couple of comments on your post above but I'll keep them until the morning if that's OK.

jamesd

I think that when asking for your advice and that of others the least I can do is be patient and appreciative.

That's the sort of end attachment and yes, syphonage back into the mains water would not be a good thing. Since shattafs like that are apparently routinely installed I assume that's handled at a minimum with a non-return valve. But thoughts on that are also welcome since I'm asking to learn as well as just saying what I'd like to do and how that might have to change... I know there can be a big difference between what the book says and what a sensible expert does.