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Dishonest executor

My husband's aunt died 8 years ago. She left a will naming my husband and his sister as equal beneficiaries and sister's husband as executor. We were told that the estate was £20k net, but without any paperwork to prove this. However, this was much what we expected and we did not challenge.

Recently we were in the Probate Office on another matter and I checked the will register on a whim. I was amazed to discover that the estate was actually £220k gross, but £20k net. My husband's aunt lived in a council house, was very frugal and would never had owed money. I asked for a copy of the will, but this shed no light on the mystery of the £200k. My husband and his sister are not on speaking terms and have not been for years. Is there any way we can obtain copies of the probate and IHT forms to find what the executor claimed was owing by the estate? I am reluctant to contact the executor directly without some evidence of maladministration. Or any other ideas? Thanks

Comments

  • madbadrob
    madbadrob Posts: 1,284 Forumite
    Eighth Anniversary Combo Breaker
    You dont have to accuse the executor of maladministration but you could ask him to supply you with a full copy of accounts for the estate which he should have done prior to paying you out anyway. I am not knowledgable as to how probate where a will exists but I would think if probate was granted and those figures supplied then a full set of accounts were presented at the correct time and accepted.

    Rob
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper I've helped Parliament
    madbadrob wrote: »
    You dont have to accuse the executor of maladministration but you could ask him to supply you with a full copy of accounts for the estate which he should have done prior to paying you out anyway. I am not knowledgable as to how probate where a will exists but I would think if probate was granted and those figures supplied then a full set of accounts were presented at the correct time and accepted.

    Rob

    I would be suprised if anyone has seen a set of accounts

    HMRC only get what is on the IHT forms and often only check the numbers add up and don't check the actual assets/debts, especialy when there no IHT to pay.
  • Tuesday_Tenor
    Tuesday_Tenor Posts: 998 Forumite
    edited 9 January 2013 at 12:58AM
    I would speak to the Probate Office first.

    I have no experience in such a matter at all, but the following might be possible:

    1) Probate Office might be able (upon proof of your husband as a beneficiary of this will) to provide you with copies of the original probate/IHT forms. This might answer your concerns with something that hadn't occurred to you. Had she received an inheritance herself, which she never spent? Did she have massive care home fees or private medical bills at the end of her life? [Though it's hard to see why these weren't paid from assets at the time].

    If there are still concerns:
    2) Probate Office might ask Executor for a set of final accounts for the Estate.

    As I say, no idea if this would be possible, but worth seeing if enquiries can be made via Probate Office rather than directly from you to Executor.

    ETA: P.S. I would be very careful before thinking/using words like 'dishonest' and 'maladministration'. If your husband knew his aunt/her life/her background well, then I can see why both assets of £220K and debts/costs of £200K would be surprising. I too would want more information in such circumstances. But there may be a perfectly logical explanation.
  • Thank you for all your suggestions. I will try the Probate Office to see if they can help. I will be careful about the language I use! My hope is that if we can find and produce evidence that charges on the estate were....mysterious, then brother in law will have a second think!
  • Mojisola
    Mojisola Posts: 35,562 Forumite
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    madbadrob wrote: »
    You dont have to accuse the executor of maladministration but you could ask him to supply you with a full copy of accounts for the estate which he should have done prior to paying you out anyway.

    It's good practice for any executor to provide a set of accounts to beneficiaries to show how the estate was dealt with.

    The executor must have done accounts in order to manage the estate.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper I've helped Parliament
    Mojisola wrote: »
    It's good practice for any executor to provide a set of accounts to beneficiaries to show how the estate was dealt with.

    The executor must have done accounts in order to manage the estate.

    I think you underestimate how easy it is to not bother if you think you will get away with it.

    NO ONE checks you do the job properly unless someone asks and follows up.

    even then you can put down anything hope they just accept and don't ask for the proof.
  • Mojisola
    Mojisola Posts: 35,562 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    I think you underestimate how easy it is to not bother if you think you will get away with it.

    NO ONE checks you do the job properly unless someone asks and follows up.

    even then you can put down anything hope they just accept and don't ask for the proof.

    I don't underestimate it at all.

    As joint executor for my Mum's will and now having POA for my Dad, I very much realise how little control there is over both roles. A lot depends on the honesty of the person in the role.

    That's why, if you are a beneficiary, you need to make sure the executor knows you will want good accounts. If there's any doubt about their scruples, keep an even closer eye on them.
  • madbadrob
    madbadrob Posts: 1,284 Forumite
    Eighth Anniversary Combo Breaker
    I would be suprised if anyone has seen a set of accounts

    HMRC only get what is on the IHT forms and often only check the numbers add up and don't check the actual assets/debts, especialy when there no IHT to pay.

    Getmore4less thx for that I always assumed where there is a gross and net value on the estates probate lists that the probate office had been given a complete set of accounts. What sort of level would IHT kick in at?

    Rob
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper I've helped Parliament
    madbadrob wrote: »
    Getmore4less thx for that I always assumed where there is a gross and net value on the estates probate lists that the probate office had been given a complete set of accounts. What sort of level would IHT kick in at?

    Rob

    The probate office will probaly just take the numbers of the PA1 all they are involved in is are the people doing the estate the right ones and is any will valid.

    HMRC are interested in the tax so look more closely at the numbers provided to come up with the final figures, I suspect in many cases where this is all goes to spouse so exempt they do very little but might dig it out again on the second death( to see if a few hundred £K have somehow disapeared in a few years)

    Currently £325k-£650k depending on the transferable spouse nil rate band.

    AIUI HMRC may investgate property(house) values and request proof of the value of other assets if they suspect anything but usualy don't bother if the estate is well below the nillrate band. When there is IHT they take a closer look and on occation do full audit of an estate. Which can be a pain if they want valuation of a house full of junk, or a few items of jewelery.

    I have heard that they have been know to check previous estates for valuation of specific items that were inherited previously(may be urban legend) to check that they still look reasonable.

    I was always when younger under the impression that probate(admin) was a well regulated and controlled process that needed specialist help

    Once you get involved you realise it is in most cases very simple, open to serious abuse, and can be bypassed altogether if assets are spread out in smaller amounts.

    The complicated cases tend to be those with more complex assets, where trusts are involved, where there are family disputes and those where the relatives are hard to find.
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