Is Britain's domestic gas & electricity really the lowest in Europe?

cepheus

Cardew wrote: »

As I understand it you, or rather that 'article', contend that UK distribution companies(BG, Npower etc) get their energy 'on the cheap' and do not pay global prices simply because because GB is close to the North Sea. Thus the UK based companies make huge profits.

The profits of all these companies are a matter of public record, as are the 'windfall taxes' paid by the North sea oil companies.

It is also a matter of record that UK energy prices are generally lower than most in Europe.

It seems in your desire to prove it is 'rip off Britain' you now pin your case on transport costs.

Can you not do better to prove your case than by quoting some badly written blog?

I don't claim to understand all the manipulation in the accounting processes as it changes from one organisation to another. Perhaps your figures exclude many gas sources?

I think as an Engineer, and all my common sense tells me that countries which rely on LNG or a mixture of LNG and piped gas such as France and Spain should be paying a lot more than those countries which have access togas piped from the North Sea.

Here are LNG and piped gas prices in the US.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_m.htm

antrobus

cepheus wrote: »

I don't claim to understand all the manipulation in the accounting processes as it changes from one organisation to another. ....

If you don't understand it, why assume it's being manipulated at all?

cepheus

I'm not, the Guardian is, but claiming we should be paying less than countries who need to import more expensive Compressed Liquid Gas from the Middle East makes a lot more sense than anything Cardew says!

cepheus

This link suggests there are two different gas pricing systems in Europe, one in NW Europe and the other in the Mediterranean area.

this link from the economist more or less confirms my common sense view

Although gas can be carted around in liquid form, that is expensive and the infrastructure required is still patchy; for the most part, gas is shifted through pipelines, and tends to be used close to where it originates. So whereas coal has world-market prices, gas has regional prices, often linked in one way or another to the oil price.

antrobus

cepheus wrote: »

I'm not, the Guardian is, but claiming we should be paying less than countries who need to import more expensive Compressed Liquid Gas from the Middle East makes a lot more sense than anything Cardew says!

But we are a country that needs to "import more expensive Compressed Liquid Gas from the Middle East". It comes (mainly) from Qatar and gets offloaded in Milford Haven. We were only 60% self sufficient in 2010 according to that blog you cited, and the position has got worse since then.

P.S. The Guardian isn't claiming anything, some blog written by a guy who does a cartoon for the Guardian is claiming things. There is a difference.

cepheus

antrobus wrote: »

But we are a country that needs to "import more expensive Compressed Liquid Gas from the Middle East". It comes (mainly) from Qatar and gets offloaded in Milford Haven. We were only 60% self sufficient in 2010 according to that blog you cited, and the position has got worse since then.

Yes but about half of those imports come from a Northern European inter-connector not through LNG container ships. Certainly it will become more expensive as LNG imports increase.

antrobus wrote: »

P.S. The Guardian isn't claiming anything, some blog written by a guy who does a cartoon for the Guardian is claiming things. There is a difference.

Then why do they call themselves 'Official blog of the Guardian'

antrobus

cepheus wrote: »

Yes but about half of those imports come from a Northern European inter-connector not LNG certainly it will become more expensive.

That still leaves a significant percentage of gas coming from Qatar; LNG imports accounted for about 25% of UK supplies in 2011.

The point wou;d be that UK domestic gas prices have been lower than in many other EU countries because of our high domestic production and because of our relatively competitive gas market. But we are becoming increasingly reliant on imports, including imported LNG, and that's driving up gas prices.

You claim that your...

cepheus wrote: »

... common sense tells me that countries which rely on LNG or a mixture of LNG and piped gas such as France and Spain should be paying a lot more than those countries which have access to gas piped from the North Sea....
,

.. but don't appear to have noticed that France and Spain are indeed paying a lot more for their gas.

antrobus

cepheus wrote: »

...Then why do they call themselves 'Official blog of the Guardian'

It doesn't. It claims to be the "official blog of The Guardian cartoon strip" and "© 2010, Hari and Jake".

cepheus

perhaps we agree then, I thought you were refuting this point

UK energy prices are about the same as the rest of the EU....While other countries who are dependent on imports can plead that global wholesale price force them to put their retail prices up, the British energy companies have no such excuse.

they seem to be suggesting they are connected to the Guardian in some way, if not they will get into trouble.

antrobus

cepheus wrote: »

perhaps we agree then, I thought you were refuting this point....

Yes I was refuting it.

As far as the statement, Is Britain's domestic gas & electricity really the lowest in Europe? is concerned that's just you misreading your source. Even your cited blog states that "One of the true things energy companies say,... is that the UK has low domestic gas and electricity prices compared with most of the European Union". As far as I'm aware no reputable or even half reputable source has ever claimed they were the lowest.

The blog goes on to argue that "If you strip out the government taxes - money which doesn't go into the pockets of the energy companies - UK energy prices are about the same as the rest of the EU."

As far as domestic gas prices are concerned (which is what the blog then waffles on about, to the exclusion of the electricity market, for some reason) that simply isn't true. The figures they show on their own bar chart show that gas prices might be cheaper in the Netherlands, they might be about the same Ireland, but they are higher in Berlin, Rome, Vienna and Paris. I don't see how the idiots that wrote that blog can then conclude that we are "paying about the same as our European cousins" when in fact we're paying less than four out of the six comparisons they quote.