Estimate of cost to install phoenix gas.

shalis

Has anyone any idea of how much it is likely to cost to install Phoenix Gas in a small 1st floor flat with 1 reception, 2 bedrooms, a kitchen and bathroom. This is in a small complex and Phoenix want a certain number of residents to express an interest before they will commit. They are very close by. Flat currently has Economy 7, but there is nothing "economical" about it. What I have no idea about is the cost involved in the plumbing work and supplying radiators etc.(probably 6 in total). Had thought about a wood burning stove but have been very badly messed about and let down by a Company in Newtownards that first visited in June and am still no further on.

HappyMJ

Economy 7 in a small flat is economic when you take into account the installation costs of gas. The maintenance on the boiler. The regular replacement of the boiler they only last 15 years. The radiators have a lifespan of 40 years. The standing charges on the gas account. The annual gas safety checks which may or not be required but highly recommeded. etc.etc..

I'd stick with Economy 7 myself.

wanchai_2

Standing charges?

shalis

Thank you for your response, but that is not our experience.
E7 has been very far from economical. In the winter the electric bills run at around £260/£270 every 2 months. I don't consider that good value. There is an electric shower which is used once a day and the cooker is very underused.
E7 is so outdated and inefficient that it is virtually impossible to get anyone with enough knowledge or indeed interest, to look at it to see what the underlying problem is.

HappyMJ

wanchai wrote: »

Standing charges?

Or the higher rate on primary units.. Whichever you prefer.

Firmus Energy for example charge 6.4p/kWh for the first 2,000kWh per year followed by 4.259p/kWh after that. The effective standing charge is 12p/day.

Economy 7 heating is generally about the same price as gas for the same efficiency. i.e an electric heater is 100% efficient and costs about 5p/kWh. A gas boiler is about 90% efficient and for every kWh of heat output from the boiler an average small flat that uses 10,000kWh per year 9,000kWh of which is used as heat and 1,0000kWh wasted costs about 5.2p/kWh for every kWh of output heat and that's if the boiler actually hits 90% efficiency rates. It's less efficient when heating hot water. Therefore using Economy 7 for heating and hot water is cheaper.

You need to make sure you are using as much energy at night as possible and are on the right tariff.

HappyMJ

shalis wrote: »

Thank you for your response, but that is not our experience.
E7 has been very far from economical. In the winter the electric bills run at around £260/£270 every 2 months. I don't consider that good value. There is an electric shower which is used once a day and the cooker is very underused.
E7 is so outdated and inefficient that it is virtually impossible to get anyone with enough knowledge or indeed interest, to look at it to see what the underlying problem is.

It's 100% efficient and installed in almost all new flats.

shalis

Thank you Happy MJ. You clearly have more knowledge of this subject than I. I did not think that E7 was all that common now in N Ireland. Anyone I know who has this system generally hates it. Certainly any places I have seen it, are usually older properties. What is your opinion on £260/£270 every 2 months just for electric in a small flat like this. I don't live there it is a relative, but I do have Phoenix and am not paying anything like that amount even in the Winter months for a 4 bed detached house. By the way the flat has very good roof insulation, and double glazing, but unfortunately not cavity wall insulation as it would be very difficult in a communal set up to just insulate your own flat. It was built in the mid 80's and my belief is that the couple of E7 heaters are old and now totally inefficient. Not sure that replacing the units would be a great idea, as there is no way of knowing how much better they might be and I believe they are not cheap to buy etc.

donnac2558

Strange then that the NIHE are replacing all economy 7 with gas heating in pensioners flats and other properties.

x12yhp

I changed a 2 bed apt from E7 to gas in the summer. No matter what was said in the previous posts, the E7 was not cheap and it rarely achieved the temperatures I wanted at the times I wanted. Gas is costing about half as much, in large part down to being able to actually use it when I need it.

As for install costs, I had it put into a ground apartment. Of course the E7 meant the whole place had to be ripped apart to install pipes which was a pain. We also put a gas hob in which is great. Total cost was coming in between £2.5-£3k with scrappage. What I would say is make REALLY sure your plumber knows what they are signing up to! I used a respected plumber and they made an utter mess. The problem is that apartments do not always have much space under the floor. The guys that did mine basically cut through the floor supports to put pipes in. Would have been ok if they had then fixed each side of the support to the ground to give a solid base but they didn't bother so I ended up having to rebuild the whole damned floor because it would move as much as an inch when you walked on it. If this were to have happened to someone not handy with the tools, it would have been another big bill to get a builder in to rebuild the mess made. So, as I say, make sure your plumber knows what they are doing and make sure that you don't let them off with any such BS!

HappyMJ

shalis wrote: »

Thank you Happy MJ. You clearly have more knowledge of this subject than I. I did not think that E7 was all that common now in N Ireland. Anyone I know who has this system generally hates it. Certainly any places I have seen it, are usually older properties. What is your opinion on £260/£270 every 2 months just for electric in a small flat like this. I don't live there it is a relative, but I do have Phoenix and am not paying anything like that amount even in the Winter months for a 4 bed detached house. By the way the flat has very good roof insulation, and double glazing, but unfortunately not cavity wall insulation as it would be very difficult in a communal set up to just insulate your own flat. It was built in the mid 80's and my belief is that the couple of E7 heaters are old and now totally inefficient. Not sure that replacing the units would be a great idea, as there is no way of knowing how much better they might be and I believe they are not cheap to buy etc.

How much are they using on E7 in a year? What are the rates charged for the night units? What is the rate charged on the day units? Is the bill paid promptly or by direct debit?

£130 a month is quite normal for winter months. If it were heated by gas and the property just as warm then the bill will still be £130 a month. Most people see a direct debit of £100 a month and say it's cheaper but that is for 12 months of the year. That would be £130 in winter and £70 in summer to average out at £100 per month.

Yes most people generally hate it as they have to manage the heating more by remembering to turn the output down at night to ensure that enough heat remains in the store for the next evening.

My advice....turn the heating off in the bedrooms and only use a convector heater in the late evening just before going to bed only for half an hour. Use an electric blanket overnight.

My house is using electric heating and the total bill over the year is £400...I manage it. When I was using gas for central heating and hot water the bill was double that as it was heating unused rooms unnecessarily. I now only heat the room I use.

I just can't see that replacing 2 storage heaters with gas central heating and 6 radiators will reduce usage. If anything the total kWh will increase.

E7 is always 100% efficient. If the heaters weren't efficient then where is the waste heat going? Into the room where it is required anyway.

donnac2558

Oh, so they now have to use an electric blanket at bedtime!!!!!!:eek:

Okay, I am two bedroom NIHE flat built early 1950s, double glazing(NIHE version!!).

I have gas, put it on when I want, heat water for about an hour in morning which does me most of the day. I don't do DD, but have a Energy Saver Card(you go to a pay point and put in amount you want), I put in £50 a month all year round. This means I have paid for the higher cost of cold months. Don't own an electric blanket, nice and warm at bedtime. My coldest months usually from December to March the bill is around £160 for the quarter. The gas heats up the rooms to the temp I want then turns its self off and clicks back on when it gets lower. After a while it does not click on and off as it stays at the temp you set it at.

Now I have an electric cooker. But get the electric shower changed to gas as well. There are grants on the go at the moment so check into those as well. A friend wanted to change from oil to gas in a three bedroom house, and was quoted around £3000 but she needed all radiators replaced in all rooms and hall.