Replacing old electric heating system

macman

So the very best non-E7 rate is still twice as much. I rest my case. Better to sort out the storage heaters (or go for gas CH and DHW).
Non-E7 Electric heating is widely used in such public locations as you mention because it is safe, virtually maintenance free, and cheap to buy, install and operate. None of those factors make it cheap to run though.

HappyMJ

macman wrote: »

So the very best non-E7 rate is still twice as much. I rest my case. Better to sort out the storage heaters (or go for gas CH and DHW).
Non-E7 Electric heating is widely used in such public locations as you mention because it is safe, virtually maintenance free, and cheap to buy, install and operate. None of those factors make it cheap to run though.

The bill won't be twice as much.

Let's assume my region, supplier and tariff with 8,000kWh of annual usage with 55% used at night on storage heating and hot water and a little bit of additional peak rate heating on those really cold winter evenings when the storage heating has run out of heat and some peak rate spot heating in rooms such as the bathroom.

The bill on Npower E7 would be £961 a year.

Switching to OVO energy and still using 8,000kWh per year the bill would be £1,008 per year which is 5% more expensive and the user of the electric heating has the option to use the heat whenever they want or need it. Less would be wasted at the wrong times of the day when the occupant is not in the property so I would assume the annual usage could be lowered from 8,000kWh.

macman

I didn't say the bill would be twice as much. The heating component might be, and we simply don't know the OP's mother's lifestyle or percentages.
But I cannot see the logic in ripping out an existing E7 install and putting in an electric boiler, if gas CH is an option?
Unless you can come up with a calculation that shows that gas CH is only going to be 5% cheaper to run than a electric boiler?

HappyMJ

macman wrote: »

I didn't say the bill would be twice as much. The heating component might be, and we simply don't know the OP's mother's lifestyle or percentages.
But I cannot see the logic in ripping out an existing E7 install and putting in an electric boiler, if gas CH is an option?
Unless you can come up with a calculation that shows that gas CH is only going to be 5% cheaper to run than a electric boiler?

I wouldn't put in an electric boiler neither...

But...Cheaper to run...yes I agree.... but what about total cost of ownership? As you seem to agreed with the commercial premises use electric heating as it's cheaper to buy, cheaper to install and cheaper to operate.

In a small flat the total cost of ownership of a gas central heating boiler and system aren't that much less than the costs of a few convector heaters, bar radiators and oil filled radiators when all costs have been taken into account over the expected lifetime of a boiler which is only 15 years.

michty6

Great responses. Rather than multi-quote I will just list some responses:

- It seems like the majority of what I have read in this thread and elsewhere support the installation of GCH. My Mum, who lives in the apartment, is disabled and getting older so if this is the best option to make things more comfortable and not have her worry about costs and being cold I will probably go ahead and look into doing this. But I will still consider electricity options as a back-up plan.
- It seems like the advice we were given regarding the electric boiler was bad advice.
- Wrt the electric immersion heater, I have no idea what is wrong. Unfortunately I am not in the UK. But I just know my Mum says they never have enough hot water to last them the day... Depending what happens with the GCH option, I will probably just get a local electrician that we know to come round and take a look at it.
- Thanks for the advice on the controls, I will pass it on to my Mum.
- Wrt insulation, we already have loft insulation and double glazing. Other than this we have cavity walls with no insulation. I contacted some companies to get a quote to get this insulted, but it seems that since we are in a flat and most of the walls are external walls this might not be possible? Not really sure, but this was just my first impression from what I read...
- I have spoken to Scottish Gas to obtain a quote about connecting us to the mains. Unfortunately this is a busy time of year so I am not sure when they might be able to do this.
- I've seen a few comments suggesting E7 is actually pretty good for people who are home all day - this is actually the case for my Mum.
- I also spoke to Hydro about our tariff. Turns out we were just on some random tariff, so I got them to switch us to the E7. Going to post a separate comment on this below

michty6

Ok on tariffs. I spoke to Scottish Hydro. From what I can gather we are not on E7 but they are advising we stay on the current tariff. Here are the rates they gave me:

- Current = THTC rate = 18.396 for standard electricity and 9.639 for heating energy.
- Potential = E7 = 8.579 for the 7 hours overnight (only 1p cheaper) and then 17.49 during the day.

So I don't know but it seems that if we are paying 9.639 for heating electricity 24/7 we should just stay with this? One thing I don't understand is how they differentiate 'heating' electricity and 'standard' electricity? Because I can't imagine any other tariff could be worse than the 200-300 a month we are paying just now (and this is with some radiators turned off to save money!)...

HappyMJ

michty6 wrote: »

Great responses. Rather than multi-quote I will just list some responses:

- It seems like the majority of what I have read in this thread and elsewhere support the installation of GCH. My Mum, who lives in the apartment, is disabled and getting older so if this is the best option to make things more comfortable and not have her worry about costs and being cold I will probably go ahead and look into doing this. But I will still consider electricity options as a back-up plan.
- It seems like the advice we were given regarding the electric boiler was bad advice.
It's not really bad advice...it's just another heating option.

- Wrt the electric immersion heater, I have no idea what is wrong. Unfortunately I am not in the UK. But I just know my Mum says they never have enough hot water to last them the day... Depending what happens with the GCH option, I will probably just get a local electrician that we know to come round and take a look at it.
I'd suggest a plumber. Sounds like there could be a leak where all the hot water is leaking out the taps or pipes somewhere so there is none left by the end of the day or she's just using too much. There are usually 2 elements in a cylinder. The bottom one comes on for 7 hours each night and the top one only comes on if the temperature of the water falls below what the thermostat has been set to so that the hot water does not run out. I would suggest setting the themostat on the bottom immersion element to 65 degrees and the top thermostat should be set to 50 degrees. Then leave them both on 24/7. The cost of doing it this way isn't much more than using the boost button when needed and you'll always have hot water.

- Thanks for the advice on the controls, I will pass it on to my Mum.
- Wrt insulation, we already have loft insulation and double glazing. Other than this we have cavity walls with no insulation. I contacted some companies to get a quote to get this insulted, but it seems that since we are in a flat and most of the walls are external walls this might not be possible? Not really sure, but this was just my first impression from what I read...
- I have spoken to Scottish Gas to obtain a quote about connecting us to the mains. Unfortunately this is a busy time of year so I am not sure when they might be able to do this.
- I've seen a few comments suggesting E7 is actually pretty good for people who are home all day - this is actually the case for my Mum.
- I also spoke to Hydro about our tariff. Turns out we were just on some random tariff, so I got them to switch us to the E7. Going to post a separate comment on this below

You can still have unexpected costs with gas central heating and they could cost more than electric heating depending on what she needs the house temperature set to.

HappyMJ

michty6 wrote: »

Ok on tariffs. I spoke to Scottish Hydro. From what I can gather we are not on E7 but they are advising we stay on the current tariff. Here are the rates they gave me:

- Current = THTC rate = 18.396 for standard electricity and 9.639 for heating energy.
- Potential = E7 = 8.579 for the 7 hours overnight (only 1p cheaper) and then 17.49 during the day.

So I don't know but it seems that if we are paying 9.639 for heating electricity 24/7 we should just stay with this? One thing I don't understand is how they differentiate 'heating' electricity and 'standard' electricity? Because I can't imagine any other tariff could be worse than the 200-300 a month we are paying just now (and this is with some radiators turned off to save money!)...

Total heat total control...an absolute rubbish tariff. get off that and onto a E7 meter ASAP...

Then once you have an E7 meter switch suppliers. You have seen the rate my supplier charge earlier in this thread and it's much lower than that at only about 5.775p/kWh for the night rate. You could even switch to Ovo Energy and have all your energy for just 2 penny more than your current night rate but 7 pennies cheaper than your standard rate.

michty6

Yeh I'm trying to look at other rates available but comparing is difficult because I don't see anywhere that lists a 'heating' rate and a 'standard' rate!

Richie-from-the-Boro

"""Turns out we were just on some random tariff, so I got them to switch us to the E7"""

I thought so, and something that can be done by the householder immediately. Given that you have really not used the heaters correctly - yet - give them a month before making any other decisions. During that month you really only need to know two things :

- is there now sufficient heat & water for my mums comfort ?
- what are the costs ?

With that in mind (1) take the start date and finish date readings from the meter, and the (2) costs per your tariff and we will give you a good 'guesstimate' of what costs are involved.

As to the MJ comments, you need a proper E7 dual rate meter something like this one and a proper E7 tariff. Pay attention to MJ's comments. You need to compare different providers of E7 tariffs. Going with the bits in italic will give you some idea of what you already have and whether it is sufficient for your mums needs. My assumption, once correctly tariff[d] is that it will be. One 'belt & braces' option would be to change the old living room heater for a new spec combination storage heater this one change will provide you mum with an 'instantly available' extra safe heat comfort if required any time day or evening. The biggest combination heater delivered is about £400 retail, and very easy to fit.

£200-300 per month is fantastical, ask her current provider not what they recommend, not what tariff is available, exclude the E10 tariff and ask :

- What is the cheapest E7 tariff you have available ?
- then ensure there is enough [ quantity] storage of cheap heat for her needs

And get your mother registered on your suppliers 'priority services register'.