Who's responsible for delivery?

PHVideo

If a buyer books their own collection for an item they bought, legally is the seller still responsible for it until the buyer receives it?

Thanks

P.

porto_bello

No, if the buyer organises collection via a 3rd party, external to the seller, then it is the buyer's responsibility and effectively, the sale becomes a collection from the seller transaction.

In the case of items collected from the seller, the seller is responsible only as far as handing the item over to the buyer or 3rd party courier acting on behalf of the buyer.

Crowqueen

Buyer's agent = courier = buyer.

In this case, if it can be sent by courier, offer to arrange it yourself with them paying, in order to keep all the responsibility on your side as if paid by Paypal that's where the responsibility will fall.

plumface

WRONG WRONG WRONG
If a buyer pays by paypal and books their own courier to collect the item, the buyer can still open an INR received.
How can the seller prove delivery?
So in answer to the OP's question,
THE SELLER CANNOT PROVE RECEIPT SO THE SELLER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE.
(unless you get the seller to pay and arrange courier,as Crowqueen says)

RFW

PHVideo wrote: »

If a buyer books their own collection for an item they bought, legally is the seller still responsible for it until the buyer receives it?

Thanks

P.

I think everyone is right!
Regarding the question above, (with a few caveats!) legally the buyer is responsible once it has left the seller. If you're talking about Paypal then the seller is responsible until they can prove it has been delivered.

The only way to make this workable for Paypal is if it is an online trackable courier and full tracking details are given to the seller OR don't use Paypal (cash on collection, bank transfer, cheque, etc).

shaun_from_Africa

plumface wrote: »

WRONG WRONG WRONG
If a buyer pays by paypal and books their own courier to collect the item, the buyer can still open an INR received.
How can the seller prove delivery?
So in answer to the OP's question,
THE SELLER CANNOT PROVE RECEIPT SO THE SELLER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE.
(unless you get the seller to pay and arrange courier,as Crowqueen says)

Not WRONG WRONG WRONG at all, in fact the earlier answers given are 100% correct.

The question that the OP asked was:

legally is the seller still responsible for it until the buyer receives it?

And the correct answer is that the seller is not legally responsible. This is clearly covered in the SOGA:

(1)Unless otherwise agreed, the goods remain at the seller’s risk until the property in them is transferred to the buyer, but when the property in them is transferred to the buyer the goods are at the buyer’s risk whether delivery has been made or not

so provided that the buyer and seller agree that once the goods have been collected by a courier the risk passes to the buyer, this is how the law sees it.

Paypal is a different matter, and whatever they say and do, the seller is not responsible for the goods.

plumface

So you are saying paypal break consumer law and are allowed to get away with it?
I would say you are looking at the SOGA in a 'face to face' transaction and not an order online or via telephone.
The following was taken from (click on the number 11 yellow box)
http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/sogaexplained

The law also applies to goods sold online, by telephone or by mail order. This includes goods sold by television, text message and fax or through a newspaper or magazine order form.

The goods must

• match the description
• be of satisfactory quality
• be fit for purpose .

Additional rights

Customers who buy goods online, by telephone or by mail order have important additional rights. Customers can cancel their order

• any time from the moment they place it, up to seven working days from the day after they receive the goods - even if the goods are not faulty *
• any time from the moment they place it, up to seven working days from the day after they agree the contract with you for services bought online
• and claim a full refund if the goods or services that they ordered are not delivered or provided within 30 days.

So,it would appear to me that when selling online,unless you can prove delivery then legally the onus is on the SELLER.

shaun_from_Africa

So you are saying paypal break consumer law and are allowed to get away with it?

No.
This is because paypal buyer & seller protection is something that they provide which is in addition to your statutory rights, and these statutory rights as per the SOGA are normally against the seller of the goods and not paypal.

As to the additional rights that you mention.
You can hightlight these and make it as big as you like but this doesn't change the fact that it is just a rough guide and not the law.
The info I provided was taken directly from the SOGA (a statutory instrument), and this states that the goods are indeed at the sellers risk until delivery unless otherwise agreed.

plumface

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

No.
This is because paypal buyer & seller protection is something that they provide which is in addition to your statutory rights, and these statutory rights as per the SOGA are normally against the seller of the goods and not paypal.

As to the additional rights that you mention.
You can hightlight these and make it as big as you like but this doesn't change the fact that it is just a rough guide and not the law.
So the government website is wrong then?
The info I provided was taken directly from the SOGA (a statutory instrument), and this states that the goods are indeed at the sellers risk until delivery unless otherwise agreed.

How is anyone able to prove that a buyer agreed to take responsibility?
If a seller lets a buyer who has paid by paypal arrange their own courier,and the item 'goes missing' then no amount of arguing about who is responsible will help.
Paypal will make the seller refund.
So is paypal acting legally or illegally then?

PHVideo

Thanks for all the responses guys, this has left me even more confused.

I though myself, that despite the seller permitting a 3rd party courier to collect, that the onus was on them to ensure delivery. if they weren't happy they shouldn't have agreed to it. they can't prove the collection took place nor provide tracking. P2g also automatically place the collection onto the senders account and not the recipient's. despite the recipient booking it. Leaving the recipient unable to open a case or file a claim.

shaun_from_Africa

How is anyone able to prove that a buyer agreed to take responsibility?

Provided that the seller informed their buyer of the fact that they would be responsible for loss or damage if they arranged a courier and the buyer agrees to this and acknowledged it in an e-mail, then that should be proof enough.

If a seller lets a buyer who has paid by paypal arrange their own courier,and the item 'goes missing' then no amount of arguing about who is responsible will help.

Agreed. It won't help with a paypal dispute, but it will help if the seller decides to take action against the buyer for the losses they have incurred.

So is paypal acting legally or illegally then?

As I have already stated in my earlier post, no, paypal are not acting illegally.
You still don't seem to understand the difference between the paypal protection policies and a persons statutory legal rights, and the protection offered by paypal policies are in addition to, and not instead of your statutory rights.

Whatever paypal do with regards to non delivery of goods cannot override your legal rights and because of this, a buyer who chooses to contract out of the section of the SOGA which states a seller is liable for damage or loss prior to delivery (and this is one of the few sections you can opt out of provided both parties agree to it), then they leave themselves wide open to being sued by the seller for fraud.

So to answer the OP's original question.

If a buyer books their own collection for an item they bought, legally is the seller still responsible for it until the buyer receives it?

If a buyer arranges a courier and accepts responsibly for loss or damage before delivery, the seller is not legally responsible for losses.
They will in all probability lose a paypal dispute, but they have the option to attempt to recover their money by legal action.