4 year old, low mileage car and the Sale of Goods Act.

bgarston

Hello Money Saving Experts,

My wife is a registered keeper of a lovely little 2008 (58) Plate Citroen C2 1.4 VTR in Silver which we purchased a little over a year ago as an Approved Used Car from a Citroen main dealer in Cheltenham.

Despite being 4 years old the car currently only has 24,000 miles on the clock but having owned the car for a year we gave the car a service when its MOT was due in October at our local Citroen dealer. When we took the car in to the dealer for its service we complained that it was sometimes difficult to engage 3rd gear. The dealer made a note of this and said they’d look in to the issue. The car flew through its MOT. Upon collection of the car the dealer said they couldn’t find any problem with the gearbox but had greased the gear linkage regardless.

Approx. 15 days after the service and MOT, on a fairly major 4 lane roundabout at ~4:45pm near our home my wife experienced complete loss of power in the car and was challenged with the prospect of safely exiting said roundabout whilst confronted with a thick wall of steam and burning oil from the car’s engine! Although understandably shaken up, fortunately no physical harm to my wife or sister (who was a passenger at the time) was done and my wife managed to coast the car to a safe spot off of the roundabout.

Since the car had just come to end of its Citroen Approved Used Car Warranty (I’d shredded the Warranty renewal just days before) we’d not yet arraigned breakdown cover so the next morning I towed it back down to the local Citroën main dealer for them to diagnose the problem.

The Main dealer phoned me to tell me they weren’t sure what had happened but there was a hole in the engine block where the water pump was supposed to be. The long and short of it is the car needs a complete new engine. I asked them to quote for this and they returned an estimate of £3203.94 (coincidentally almost the exact private resale value of the car in A1 condition).

My question is as follows and is twofold. The car would have been originally sold with a 3 year/60,000 mile warranty. The car might be older than 3 years old but the mileage of the car isn’t even half of the mileage covered under its original manufactures warranty. In addition to this we purchased the car with an Approved Used Car Warranty which had just expired some 10-15 days before in incident. The Sale of Goods Act says that goods should be of 'satisfactory quality', and in practice, they should last a reasonable amount of time before developing a problem. In this respect is it reasonable for an internal combustion engine to catastrophically fail given the age/low mileage of the car.


On this basis do you think it’s reasonable for me to look to Citroen UK to at least help towards the repair of my wife’s vehicle at the very least?


Thanks in advance for your pointers and advice.

Regards


Ben

Avoriaz

bgarston wrote: »

On this basis do you think it’s reasonable for me to look to Citroen UK to at least help towards the repair of my wife’s vehicle at the very least?

Ask them. It isn't an unreasonable request.

The worst that can happen is that you have wasted ten minutes and a stamp. (unless you can use email).

vaio

I'd be looking for a significant (maybe even total) good will contribution from the manufacturer especially if the car has full dealer history.

The only way you are going to get anywhere with SOG against the seller is if you can prove the fault existed at the point of sale. Ideally the web forums will reveal this is a common problem due to a design/manufacturing fault and if you are really lucky you'll find Citroen have issued a recall or technical paper about it. Without that sort of evidence I think you are going to struggle.

steve-L

1) The Warranty expired
2) Was the original warranty even transferable?
3) If it was has every service been done?
4) You bought it from a private company in Cheltenham... (they are presumably just a franchise as are most 'main dealers')


Here it gets confusing .... if you are using SOGA who are you talking about because it can only be the entity you bought it from.
Your connection with PSA Group is only as far as the original warranty....

The whole SOGA is very confused around used cars....
OFT have published a guide....
This is the consultation paper, search the OFT site for the later published ones. http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/OFT1152con.pdf

Unfortunately this is GUIDANCE, not law.

If you download the report and the accompanying notes you'll find its up to you to prove the car was not satisfactory at the time of purchase and they may elect to repair, replace or refund.

This is 'in a reasonable amount of time'.... that is not defined.... so it would be up to a court to decide if over a year is 'reasonable'.

In other words I think legally you are in a difficult position ... the Citroen dealer however was told about a gearbox issue before the MOT but did you actually ask them to check it out specifically and when you collected the car did you ask about the gear issue?

redux

bgarston wrote: »

On this basis do you think it’s reasonable for me to look to Citroen UK to at least help towards the repair of my wife’s vehicle at the very least?

Yes. Like Avoriaz, I think you should ask about this.

If you'd owned it from new you might be on slightly stronger ground, but on the other hand this came from a main dealer as an approved secondhand car with their warranty, so it should be a bit better than any old dealer. And it sounds like you've had it serviced at the main agents, so they will have less reason to suspect poor maintenance elsewhere.

Some one I know had a new Citroen a few years ago and the engine blew up a few days after the warranty expired. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think the settlement was they only had to pay roughly a third or so of the repair. Even that might feel disappointing, but on the other hand it does represent some betterment. It was in another country though, so I don't know whether things here are better or worse.

bgarston

Ok, guys. Thanks for your thoughts and the pointers. I've had a independent automotive engineer look at the car and he's confirmed the findings of the main dealer in Bristol. Furthermore he's ascertained that it was the water pump that blew up and took the side out of the engine block out in the process. I've written to the Main Dealer in Cheltenham from whom we purchased the car little over 13 months ago. I am claiming that there was a manufacturing fault with the water pump which was present at the point of sale but has only now become apparent. On this basis I am looking for the dealer to foot the bill for the fitment of a new engine under the SoGA.

Mindful that the above approach might not pay off I've been looking at all of my options. In this respect when we purchased the car we paid using a Visa Debit Card (didn't have a Credit Card at the time). Given that the Citroen Warranty has just expired the incident happened less than 120 days ago would we be covered by the Visa Chargeback Protection even though we purchased the car 13 months ago?

Cheers


Ben

forgotmyname

Manufacturing fault took 4 years to fail. You will have a hard time proving that.

So is the engine actually damaged or just the waterpump? Failed pump seized and shattered?

bgarston

forgotmyname wrote: »

Manufacturing fault took 4 years to fail. You will have a hard time proving that.

So is the engine actually damaged or just the waterpump? Failed pump seized and shattered?

The car was 3 years old when we bought it so don't know the history before that other than its had one previous lady owner and is been to a main dealer at approprate intervals.

Water pumps don't fail after just 24,000 miles.....historically they are usually changed with the cam belt (this isn't neseserorly the case these days), in this case, 70,000 miles and would expect the pump to last until then. For the pump to fail after just 24,000 is taking the p*ss in my book and can have only happened by way of a manufacturing fault.

To answer your question the water pump has shattered and in doing so has blown a hole in the side of the engine block, rendering the engine unserviceable. Given that the car is really low mileage and is only four years old this isn't on.

arcon5

I just can't see a water pump making a hole in the engine block... More likely the engine block faulty and the sheer pressue from the combustion engine blew it off.

When I've had water pumps fail its just overheated and lost coolant... Although its more likely the gasket thag would fail first.

Might be worth you having a different garage look at it for a more impartial opinion. And peruse a repair from the dealer you purchased it from.... Or at least a significant contribution. It's likely an engine can be sourced an fitted much much less than quoted.

forgotmyname

The pump fits into a hole and its unlikely to be strong enough to put a dent into it never mind a hole.

A lot of modern pumps have plastic blades. Barely maker a scratch.

Low mileage is not always a good sign. Could be lots of short journeys or left ticking over for ages to defrost.

When we get some snow i will pop a video up on yourtube. The old dears with the motability cars. Starting them up and leaving them for over 20 minutes to defrost.

No attempt to scrape any snow off them at all. Start it up and leave it running.

I wondered if they were just going out to get more fuel. So they can do it again tomorrow.

gord115

Is the car full service history?