icesave have lost my parents 6k by direct debit urgent help needed

chardonnay_2

hi, any help on this will be greatly received. my mum and dad have an account with icesave (who use dd to transfer money to and from their accounts). when my dad set up the direct debit he accidently added an extra digit to the account number of his nominated cahoot account. they then decided to transfer money from icesave to cahoot. they transferred £6000 but because of the extra digit this was rejected by cahoot. this should have bounced back to their icesave account - but it hasn't and they are now 6k down. they are worried sick.

it appears someone at icesave has manually tried to force the dd through and have amended the dd by taking one of the extra digits in the account number and using it to change it to another cahoot sort code. this sort code has been confirmed by cahoot to be for their credit cards but say they do not have any credit cards with this account number (still with me )

instead of using the direct debit guarantee, icesave are trying to blame my parents and saying they also changed the sort code and the account number - this isn't possible.

i would have thought icesave would have to just do a direct debit indemnity but they seem unwilling to help and are saying ask cahoot for the money (cahoot haven't got it but say they will do a trace when they get details from icesave)

icesave are now following their complaints procedure and have to respond by tomorrow. they still have not produced a copy of the trace.

this money appears to be lost in cyber space - can anyone help?

chardonnay_2

update letter did not arrive by today as promised

they have still not received a copy of the trace that was done

they still do not have their £6000 back

icesave are now denying the following that they had earlier told my parents was the result of their trace

it appears someone at icesave has manually tried to force the dd through and have amended the dd by taking one of the extra digits in the account number and using it to change it to another cahoot sort code. this sort code has been confirmed by cahoot to be for their credit cards but say they do not have any credit cards with this account number (still with me )

tripled

If it was a direct debit then you can claim it back under the dd guarantee, they don't have a choice. If it was a bank transfer then you're in a much more difficult position.

chardonnay_2

it was definitely direct debit, i've seen the paperwork. icesave are refusing to use the direct debit guarantee saying it only covers payments coming into their accounts :mad:

tripled

They are speaking rubbish.

http://www.bacs.co.uk/BPSL/directdebit/generalpublic/yourrights/

chardonnay_2

i know tripled but this has been going on for a month:mad:

to clarify

1. parents nominated their cahoot account for d/d per icesave's instructions

2. parents added an extra 6 making the account number too long

3. parents requested transfer by d/d (system icesave use) to their cahoot account of £6000.

4. cahoot couldn't accept it as it was a digit longer than their accounts

5. money has left parents icesave account end of march and has not reached their cahoot account.

6. icesave say cahoot have the funds - cahoot say they don't but will investigate when they receive a trace from icesave

7. icesave say the results of the trace show When incorrect account number has reached an advisor at icesave, the advisor, realising that the account number was too long, has transposed a number from the account number to another cahoot sort code making the account number the right length

8. cahoot say this new sort code is for their credit cards but the new account number is not for any of their accounts so they have still not had the funds

9. icesave are following their complaints procedure and say they will send parents a letter by 20/4/07 - letter did not arrive

10. parents demand letter is sent special delivery, including a copy of the trace done by icesave.

11. icesave are now denying point 7.

12. icesave they are going to work with cahoot to try to sort it. they say that their financial dept state that the direct debit guarantee only covers inbound payments not outgoing payments!

Godders

chardonnay wrote: »

12. icesave they are going to work with cahoot to try to sort it. they say that their financial dept state that the direct debit guarantee only covers inbound payments not outgoing payments!

This line is taken from the direct debit web site:

"A Direct Debit is an instruction from a customer to their bank or building society authorising an organisation to collect varying amounts from their account"

So I read this that DD is geared towards the receiver of funds (in your case Cahoot) had to be requesting the money from the 'bank' (Icesave) for this to be a Direct Debit, but your posts make it look like Icesave systems initiated a transfer to Cahoot? Whenever I do this (to make an ad-hoc payment to a credit card, or shift money from one account to another) it is always classed as a Payment or Funds Transfer - non of which are covered by a direct debit agreement.

As an aside - if the above is true what Icesave say about inbound and outbound payments doesn't really make sense - if a company requested money from them under a DD agreement (outbound) and it was incorrect then they would be liable. If they request money from another bank (inbound) under a DD agreement then the other bank would be liable. It doesn't appear to matter which direction then money goes - its who initiated the transfer.

However Icesave have signed up to the banking code and as such should be following it -

- [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dealing quickly and sympathetically when things go wrong

If they are not doing this then you can get a copy of their full complaints procedure (which they claim to be following) and find out any escalation routes open to you. At the very least they should be providing the trail to cahoot ASAP, it's all computerised - it can't be that hard!!!!

AND their own website give a different description of the Direct Debit System:

http://www.icesave.co.uk/help.html#09

[/FONT]Why do you need a Direct Debit Instruction from me?

A Direct Debit Instruction enables you to transfer money to and from your Icesave account. When you open your account with us, you will set up an electronic link between your current account and your Icesave account. This enables you to transfer money between your current account and your Icesave account, whenever you want.

All payments made this way are covered by the Direct Debit Guarantee, so that if an error is ever made by us or by your bank / building society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund of the amount paid.

From what I've read tonight - strictly speaking that is not what a DD enables you to do and therefore they have broken this rule of the banking code

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- Giving clear information about how an account or service works

Good luck
[/FONT]

MarkyMarkD

It is NOT a direct debit. Icesave use the same banking details for direct debit collections of money FROM your external accounts as for BACS credits of money TO your external accounts.

So, the direct debit guarantee is irrelevant.

In any case, the details which were incorrect were provided by the OP's Dad. So the only person responsible for this money going missing is the OP's Dad.

When you set up a DD mandate, you can't "add an extra digit" as the sort code/account number combination has to have the standard 6/8 digit format (6 sort code, 8 account number) or it's obviously wrong. As Icesave are online, I presume the OP's Dad typed the details in online and there's no way he could have inserted an extra digit.

So, the money has gone to the bank details which the OP's Dad provided, or to a suspense account at Cahoot. Cahoot wouldn't necessarily return this money to Icesave - they would investigate where it should go, or wait for Icesave to ask for it back. Icesave have to initiate the BACS trace and get the money back.

But blaming Icesave for being shoddy isn't really fair when it was the OP's Dad's fault in the first place.

And not understanding the difference between direct debit and BACS doesn't help either.

chardonnay_2

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

When you set up a DD mandate, you can't "add an extra digit" as the sort code/account number combination has to have the standard 6/8 digit format (6 sort code, 8 account number) or it's obviously wrong. As Icesave are online, I presume the OP's Dad typed the details in online and there's no way he could have inserted an extra digit.

So, the money has gone to the bank details which the OP's Dad provided, or to a suspense account at Cahoot. Cahoot wouldn't necessarily return this money to Icesave - they would investigate where it should go, or wait for Icesave to ask for it back. Icesave have to initiate the BACS trace and get the money back.QUOTE]


i have seen a letter sent to my dad with the direct debit mandate to their cahoot account from icesave. this letter shows the account number having 9digits & at the bottom of said letter is the direct debit guarantee info.

icesave have still not provided a copy of the trace to cahoot or my parets almost a month after the original instruction.

my dad is aware he made an error typing the account number and replicated a digit. however it is not his fault that icesave have lied to him and taken almost a month and still not returned the money.

chardonnay_2

if bacs and direct debits are not similar the same check out the direct debits website address

http://www.bacs.co.uk/BPSL/directdebit/generalpublic/faqs/

jobbingmusician

Banking ombudsman?