Looking for some advice please RE storage heaters and prepayment meters

Richie-from-the-Boro

grahamc2003 wrote: »

And you too are welcome to your (obviously) incorrect opinion that one of the major steps forward in storage heater design (i.e. the effective control of output) should never be used and always left on zero.

Show me something in 'Part L' or anywhere else saying the output control should be left on zero all the time? I don't know why you always persist in this - isn't it perfectly obvious that they put a damper on (controlled via the output knob) so it should be used, and not so it shouldn't be used? Using it correctly (as I stated) means the room temperature profile is shifted a little from nighttime to daytime for the same cost.

(Also, this post isn't to 'stalk' you, as you stated the last time we had this very same exchange. It is to correct your obvious misunderstanding which, if the op follows your incorrect advice, will cause her to have a warmer room at night at the expense of a cooler room in the day for the very same cost).

We are never going to agree, and that's ok - its free speech and the way it should be.

For clarity I'm disagreeing 'only' with your 'teaching' people to put only enough charge in at night so that use of the open damper means its cold and empty before the next nights charge. Your narrow parsimony method charges the bricks only, my method, quite properly takes into account the 'fabric' temperature of the room when related to day stored energy design, not only the temperature of the bricks.

In fairness to you I should have been that specific in my #19 post

Richie-from-the-Boro

fabbman wrote: »

You have a fundamental issue with the lack of cavity insulation in the wall which is always going to result in a cold house! I remember it only too well through experience and never again!!

Have you checked the timeswitch on your storage heaters? They should be charging from 2300-0700 (mine used to) and charging at the Economy 7 tariff. I found the heaters ok, many people struggle to understand the concept of how they work but take some time to check the timeswitch and always leave the 'output' to 0 (there should be more than enough heat to 'radiate' through the panel)

Put all your effort into moving house, its miserable when you can't stay warm - it made me ill!

- you've got it in one
- if there isn't enough to radiate through the panel, there isn't enough stored cheap heat .. .. period

grahamc2003

fabbman wrote: »

You have a fundamental issue with the lack of cavity insulation in the wall which is always going to result in a cold house! I remember it only too well through experience and never again!!

Have you checked the timeswitch on your storage heaters? They should be charging from 2300-0700 (mine used to) and charging at the Economy 7 tariff. I found the heaters ok, many people struggle to understand the concept of how they work but take some time to check the timeswitch and always leave the 'output' to 0 (there should be more than enough heat to 'radiate' through the panel)

Put all your effort into moving house, its miserable when you can't stay warm - it made me ill!

Could you take a moment and explain why leaving the output on 0 is the most effective way of using these?

Doing so just leaves quite a lot of residual heat in the central core of the heater, and dampers were designed into storage heaters to release this heat by convection.

Any idea why storage heater engineers decided to design in an output control to release heat from the central core if, as you say, it should never be used?

The output control is a major feature allowing better temperature control and heating by both radiation and additionally by convection. Leaving the output on zero heats by radiation only - and that means exactly the same as in the days of thick ineffective storage heaters which basically just heat up and then cool down (by radiation) with no control whatsoever, and that's what gave storage heaters a bad name. Radiant only heating (i.e. that from old style thick heaters with either no or ineffective output control, and from slim line heaters with the noutput constantly set to zero) simply throw out the maximum amount of heat at 07:30 in the morning, and gradually heat less and less as the day goes on until the surface temperature is no longer warm, when it stops heating altogether, even though the internal core is still probably very hot. Opening the damper means this heat is released. It aint rocket science.

grahamc2003

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

We are never going to agree, and that's ok - its free speech and the way it should be.

For clarity I'm disagreeing 'only' with your 'teaching' people to put only enough charge in at night so that use of the open damper means its cold and empty before the next nights charge. Your narrow parsimony method charges the bricks only, my method, quite properly takes into account the 'fabric' temperature of the room when related to day stored energy design, not only the temperature of the bricks.

In fairness to you I should have been that specific in my #19 post

Why do you want any heat in there last thing at night?

All that will do is heat the room while everyones gone to bed. Maybe if you keep snakes you may want to pay for a warm room no one is in at 3am, but most people don't. The 'fabric' of the room (that is the house bricks around the heater) will be warmed anyhow during the day, not much you can do about that so your statement 'charges the (heater) bricks only' is incorrect.

Again - tell me why storage heater engineers designed in a facility which you say shouldn't be used? Could it be that professional engineers who have studied thermodynamics and understand in detail all the underlying theory of heat transfer and resulting temperature profiles know less than you about this subject? That's what you are saying. Do the operating manuals say 'leave the output set to zero all the time'? or something like 'turn the output up late in the day if the room cools'?

Richie-from-the-Boro

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Why do you want any heat in there last thing at night?

All that will do is heat the room while everyones gone to bed. Maybe if you keep snakes you may want to pay for a warm room no one is in at 3am, but most people don't. The 'fabric' of the room (that is the house bricks around the heater) will be warmed anyhow during the day, not much you can do about that so your statement 'charges the (heater) bricks only' is incorrect.

Again - tell me why storage heater engineers designed in a facility which you say shouldn't be used? Could it be that professional engineers who have studied thermodynamics and understand in detail all the underlying theory of heat transfer and resulting temperature profiles know less than you about this subject? That's what you are saying. Do the operating manuals say 'leave the output set to zero all the time'? or something like 'turn the output up late in the day if the room cools'?

We went there last time over a long and boring 3 days or so I think, I've no intention of being dragged there again. It was a stalemate then and a waste of the worlds alphabet and forum space, and it will be if we go there again. No thanks, you post your view and I'll post mine, that's free speech and the way it should be.

grahamc2003

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

We went there last time over a long and boring 3 days or so I think, I've no intention of being dragged there again. It was a stalemate then and a waste of the worlds alphabet and forum space, and it will be if we go there again. No thanks, you post your view and I'll post mine, that's free speech and the way it should be.

Well, no it wasn't a stalemate. Like last time, I posted engineering and scientific reasons, which are unassailable, to back up my views. I also asked you last time and this, several pertinent questions which you refuse to answer, or rather are impossible for you to answer while you hold your incorrect views. You also gave, like this time, no justification or any reasoning for your views, apart from that's how you have done it for 25 years. While I don't mind at all you using your storage heaters incorrectly for 25 years or for another 25, I do object you simply stating without reasons that I am wrong (yet again), and advising someone who really needs to know how to get the best from their heaters with duff information.

You can't possibly really think that an output control was designed into storage heaters and that they then should never be used. Doesn't that fact tell you that you have some very basic misunderstanding somewhere? It must do. Sheesh, at some stage you should swallow your pride and consider these posts with an open mind.

luvchocolate

Hi guys I have read and posted about storage heaters and wondered how to get the best from them, I really appreciate all your help but I have to admit being more comfused than ever!! but that could be because I am a woman of a certain age who is easily comfused!!!! :rotfl::rotfl:

cutestkids

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Why do you want any heat in there last thing at night?

All that will do is heat the room while everyones gone to bed. Maybe if you keep snakes you may want to pay for a warm room no one is in at 3am, but most people don't. The 'fabric' of the room (that is the house bricks around the heater) will be warmed anyhow during the day, not much you can do about that so your statement 'charges the (heater) bricks only' is incorrect.

Again - tell me why storage heater engineers designed in a facility which you say shouldn't be used? Could it be that professional engineers who have studied thermodynamics and understand in detail all the underlying theory of heat transfer and resulting temperature profiles know less than you about this subject? That's what you are saying. Do the operating manuals say 'leave the output set to zero all the time'? or something like 'turn the output up late in the day if the room cools'?

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

We went there last time over a long and boring 3 days or so I think, I've no intention of being dragged there again. It was a stalemate then and a waste of the worlds alphabet and forum space, and it will be if we go there again. No thanks, you post your view and I'll post mine, that's free speech and the way it should be.

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Well, no it wasn't a stalemate. Like last time, I posted engineering and scientific reasons, which are unassailable, to back up my views. I also asked you last time and this, several pertinent questions which you refuse to answer, or rather are impossible for you to answer while you hold your incorrect views. You also gave, like this time, no justification or any reasoning for your views, apart from that's how you have done it for 25 years. While I don't mind at all you using your storage heaters incorrectly for 25 years or for another 25, I do object you simply stating without reasons that I am wrong (yet again), and advising someone who really needs to know how to get the best from their heaters with duff information.

You can't possibly really think that an output control was designed into storage heaters and that they then should never be used. Doesn't that fact tell you that you have some very basic misunderstanding somewhere? It must do. Sheesh, at some stage you should swallow your pride and consider these posts with an open mind.

For crying out loud why is it every time someone comes on here with a storage heater question you start this the rest of us are not really interested in your personal squabbles, it really is offputting that the two of you highjack every thread on the subject with your playground behaviour .

You are both so hung up on this that you fail to notice that the poor OPs on these threads never come back to the thread and any answers from others seem to get hidden in your bickering.

Why not take it to personal messages if you need to squabble

chris1973

For crying out loud why is it every time someone comes on here with a storage heater question you start this the rest of us are not really interested in your personal squabbles, it really is offputting that the two of you highjack every thread on the subject with your playground behaviour .

You are both so hung up on this that you fail to notice that the poor OPs on these threads never come back to the thread and any answers from others seem to get hidden in your bickering.

Why not take it to personal messages if you need to squabble

+1

NOBODY wins an argument on the internet and as you correctly pointed out earlier (on yet another thread which has rapidly become yet another little game of personal ping pong), you obviously didn't settle the dis-agreement last time, so what makes you think you will now? or the next time or the next...... All you succeed in doing is completely derail and trash yet another persons' thread, and bore the rest of us with your ongoing attempts at one-upmanship.

Deal with it and move on......but if you can't do that small thing, and since the Ignore function works really well, I suggest you both add each other to it!.

Cbe2012

Thank you for everyone's help and advice. Sorry I've only just got chance to get back online.
I've changed the storage heater timers to charge for the whole 7 hours but on a lower input and output so I'll see what the meter says tomorrow to compare the costs. I dug out a hot water bottle and purchased an electric blanket so these have been appreciated tonight!
I've also spoken to our energy supplier and we are having a meter fitted so we can go onto direct debit, so although it still won't be great, hopefully with using the heaters properly, we will be better off, and hopefully can move house one day.
Richie-from-the-boro; thank you for the link to your other post, I read through it all, but unfortunately I don't think we can do much in terms of moving heaters around etc as it isn't our house. I have however turned the kitchen heater off and we're going to get a panel heater tomorrow to use in there. The bathroom heater I've turned down to 1 on both input and output and set to charge all night so I'll see what the heat is like in there tomorrow.
Thanks again, hopefully we may be slightly warmer and have more credit left than we would have done otherwise tomorrow. Fingers crossed!