Why are savings rates on the floor?

redbuzzard

Well, I won't be voting UKIP, but I think we might benefit from choosing our own road outside the EU. The de facto power axis is France & Germany, unless we want to join the Euro; UK is about to be shafted with the financial transaction tax, which will hammer UK's very large financial sector with little impact on the rest of the eurozone.

We need to make a choice between loss of sovereignty as a full member on the one hand, or full independence on the other. At the moment UK has no power other than derives from its financial contribution, and is being dumped on.

There are plenty of other countries to trade with, and no obstacle to trading with the EU from outside it - as the rest of the world has amply demonstrated.

As the federal state evolves, there will be winners and losers. The EU only needs us for our contribution to levelling up central, eastern and southern Europe. Let them stew in their own juice, a self-governing UK will be much more agile without them.

Gadfium

You-kip wrote: »

Its funny how the 2 richest countries in Europe are not in the EU.

And your point is what exactly? I assume that you are trying to correlate being rich with being outside the EU? If so, then please make your case and don't confuse correlation with causation.

StevieJ

You-kip wrote: »

Its funny how the 2 richest countries in Europe are not in the EU.


How can the commercial case for staying in the EU be overwhelming when the UK suffers a trade deficit of £70bn-a-year with it?

I thought Luxembourg was in the EU?

Gadfium

StevieJ wrote: »

I thought Luxembourg was in the EU?

:beer:
Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story, eh?
Or a good soundbite (which is pretty much the way that UKIP operates)


http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/

talexuser

If we get out, will Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Sony etc factories here all relocate to France to avoid import tariffs?

redbuzzard

talexuser wrote: »

If we get out, will Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Sony etc factories here all relocate to France to avoid import tariffs?

Not if they have any sense - talk to anybody who has tried to run a business in France - it's nigh impossible to fire people. A company I know quite well had to close a business in France - they basically had to pay everybody for 3 years.

I have a friend in France who would dearly love to be paid off by the bank he works for - he laments being "unsackable".

They may of course look to other EU countries. Equally, Britain would have the freedom to manage its fiscal and legislative regimes to make it sufficiently attractive for businesses to locate, or remain, here.

Frankly I'm not sure who has all the knowledge and insights required to know quite what the repercussions would be - but some fairly serious people now are prepared to contemplate it - not all of them in UKIP.

doughnutmachine

Gadfium wrote: »

:beer:
Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story, eh?
Or a good soundbite (which is pretty much the way that UKIP operates)


http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/

[FONT= ]Norway seems to be doing alright[/FONT][FONT= ]?[/FONT][FONT= ] Switzerland also has a GNP that knocks the UK for 6[/FONT][FONT= ]?[/FONT][FONT= ] So perhaps the lesson to be learned is that countries don’t have to be in the EU to be doing well[/FONT][FONT= ]?[/FONT][FONT= ][/FONT]
[FONT= ] [/FONT]
[FONT= ]The UK gives a net 9 billion a year to Europe. I personally would prefer if this money was invested in the UK….[/FONT]
[FONT= ] [/FONT]
[FONT= ]Why is it that the EU accounts aren’t approved by the auditors[/FONT][FONT= ]?[/FONT][FONT= ] Is it because that there is so much corruption that no honest accountant would approve the made up figures provided by the EU[/FONT][FONT= ]?[/FONT]
[FONT= ] [/FONT]
[FONT= ]On the plus side the EU gives us….. ehhhhmmm well, I can’t really think of anything.[/FONT][FONT= ]The impacts of the EU seem overwhelmingly negative, it actually surprises me that no politician really seems to be able to explain what the UK gets out of the EU. Perhaps you could tell me what membership of the EU gives the average UK citizen? Perhaps you think the EU is beneficial because it keeps second rate politicians like Neil Kinnock out of the UK?[/FONT]
[FONT= ] [/FONT]
[FONT= ]I have to admit that after the absolute train wreck of the single currency I’m amazed that people still think the EU is somehow a good idea.[/FONT].

Gadfium

OK, I'll bite

doughnutmachine wrote: »

Norway seems to be doing alright? Switzerland also has a GNP that knocks the UK for 6? So perhaps the lesson to be learned is that countries don’t have to be in the EU to be doing well?

Is it? You are begging the question. You have also offered nothing to support that Norway are doing well because of or in spite of EU membership.

doughnutmachine wrote: »

Is it because that there is so much corruption that no honest accountant would approve the made up figures provided by the EU?

Begging the question again. Make your point and support it.

doughnutmachine wrote: »

On the plus side the EU gives us….. ehhhhmmm well, I can’t really think of anything.

Argument from ignorance. Why not investigate what we do get and then present your argument? Just because you don't know doesn't meant that it is the case.

doughnutmachine wrote: »

The impacts of the EU seem overwhelmingly negative

To whom? You? What about everyone else?

doughnutmachine wrote: »

Perhaps you could tell me what membership of the EU gives the average UK citizen?

When did it become my job to educate anyone that asks a question? Go and do your own research and then present your argument.

doughnutmachine wrote: »

Perhaps you think the EU is beneficial because it keeps second rate politicians like Neil Kinnock out of the UK?

Perhaps I don't.

doughnutmachine wrote: »

I have to admit that after the absolute train wreck of the single currency I’m amazed that people still think the EU is somehow a good idea

And yet, they do. So perhaps the issue is with your understanding of the issue?

doughnutmachine

Gadfium wrote: »

Argument from ignorance. Why not investigate what we do get and then present your argument? Just because you don't know doesn't meant that it is the case.

ignorance? it is a matter of fact that the UK pays a lot more into the EU than we get out. It's also a matter of fact that the EU budget has not been approved by the auditors for 18 (?) years?

it's also a fact that a lot of people in the UK feel there are too many immigrants in the UK clogging up the NHS and taking all their money earned back to their homelands.

but if you managed to find some arguments explaining why the EU was a good thing i might be tempted to stop giving money to UKIP....

go on, just a couple of reasons explaining why the EU is good for the UK... you explain why Lord Lawson is wrong.

Gadfium

"Argument from ignorance" is a logical fallacy, not a slur. You said "On the plus side the EU gives us….. ehhhhmmm well, I can’t really think of anything."
That is an argument from ignorance. Your lack of knowledge does not mean that no evidence exists.

doughnutmachine wrote: »

it's also a fact that a lot of people in the UK feel there are too many immigrants in the UK clogging up the NHS

How many exactly?

doughnutmachine wrote: »

it's also a fact that a lot of people in the UK feel there are too many immigrants in the UK clogging up the NHS

There's a hell of a lot of UK citizens doing exactly the same too. Let me give you a real-world example. My partner works in the NHS. She is currently nursing a UK citizen (born and bred here). This woman is 32 years old and is dying of alcoholism. She has been in and out of the ward constantly since she was 27. She lives on benefits and has never worked.
Her mother died in the same ward 3 months ago. She died of internal bleeding caused by chronic alcoholism. In the last 2 years of her life she spent about 13 months on the ward. Neither she or her alcoholic partner worked and both supported themselves on benefits. She died at 51 and her funeral was paid for by the State.
The daughter has a 2 year old girl who is suffering a number of conditions caused by her mother's insistence on drinking in pregnancy (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). The State will step in and care for this child and provide for support for the rest of her life.
At any one time, my partner's ward will generally have about 10 chronic alcoholics/drug dependants in there, all with similar stories.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but personally I would prefer to have a hundred, a thousand, a million immigrants coming into this country. At least a sizeable proportion of those will find employment, pay taxes, rear families and contribute something back to this society.

So, if you are going to bang the drum about "clogging up the NHS" then you must also wish to prevent bone idle, lazy UK citizens from accessing the system. Especially if they have never paid a penny into the system. Or would you just restrict access to people with a different passport?

doughnutmachine wrote: »

and taking all their money earned back to their homelands.

You will agree that if they have money then they must have earned it? And if they earned it, then they must have paid taxes? And paid rent or a mortgage? And bought food, paid utilities, bought from our shops? Whats wrong with that, exactly?